Looking for more 60% sized keyboards

What is your favorite sized keyboard?

Full
9
10%
Tenkeyless
17
19%
70% - includes F1-12
17
19%
60%
45
51%
 
Total votes: 88

shibbyllama

30 Nov 2012, 20:39

woody wrote:
Now go and get it to satisfy your own curiosity.
Heh, I need time to properly form my argument for my wife. Usually I just say "what if you get another bag and I get another keyboard?" But at $300 that's a tough argument to make!

User avatar
Halverson

30 Nov 2012, 20:42

shibbyllama wrote:
woody wrote:
Now go and get it to satisfy your own curiosity.
Heh, I need time to properly form my argument for my wife. Usually I just say "what if you get another bag and I get another keyboard?" But at $300 that's a tough argument to make!
"What if you get a designer bag, and I get a designer keyboard".

Could work!

User avatar
CeeSA

30 Nov 2012, 21:11

shibbyllama wrote:
Heh, I need time to properly form my argument for my wife. Usually I just say "what if you get another bag and I get another keyboard?" But at $300 that's a tough argument to make!
Say: "this little keyboard has an insufficient amount of keys, so i need 2 or 3 of them" :D

I like the comparison to a designer bag very much. Very good looking, but a little less functionality ;)

shibbyllama

30 Nov 2012, 21:23

Halverson wrote:
shibbyllama wrote:
woody wrote:
Now go and get it to satisfy your own curiosity.
Heh, I need time to properly form my argument for my wife. Usually I just say "what if you get another bag and I get another keyboard?" But at $300 that's a tough argument to make!
"What if you get a designer bag, and I get a designer keyboard".

Could work!
That, my friend, is a great idea.

User avatar
rknize

30 Nov 2012, 22:14

naisanza wrote:It's definitely a collector's item, the HHKB. The only time's I ever found issues with not having dedicated arrow keys is when I'm trying to play a game that requires them, like tetris. With emulators, I could remap them, though.
I always got the impression that the nav cluster was tossed-in without much thought on the HHKB. This makes sense if most users are vi/emacs users. In another life, I had a MS Natural keyboard with the diamond layout. It drove me crazy switching back and forth between keyboards.

Findecanor

30 Nov 2012, 22:21

To comment on the poll: I voted tenkeyless, but I could do without the function row. Delete, arrow and nav keys are important to me, but they could be moved a bit to the left. I think that a HHKB/TKL hybrid could be nice.

As to mapping arrows to the function layer on a compact board, I think that having arrow keys as an inverse-T on IJKL and nav keys on their relative numpad positions to IJ and L would be best. In other words, as if you had an embedded numpad with an extra Down arow on '5' (K). Then you would be able to transition from home position to arrows without moving the fingers on the right hand, and you would find the nav keys in familiar places.

User avatar
trax

30 Nov 2012, 22:41

rknize wrote:
naisanza wrote:It's definitely a collector's item, the HHKB. The only time's I ever found issues with not having dedicated arrow keys is when I'm trying to play a game that requires them, like tetris. With emulators, I could remap them, though.
I always got the impression that the nav cluster was tossed-in without much thought on the HHKB. This makes sense if most users are vi/emacs users. In another life, I had a MS Natural keyboard with the diamond layout. It drove me crazy switching back and forth between keyboards.
The arrow layout on the hhkb is not the same as in vi which is a shame really.
Using the arrow keys on a hhkb is OK imo, when moving the cursor in a text document for example it feels alrite.

However playing a game (for example runescape) is a total pain and it actually hurts my hand after a while.

naisanza

30 Nov 2012, 22:56

kbdfr wrote:
naisanza wrote:[…]
This is what my desk looks like.
Image
And you complain about anything bigger than 60% being a waste of space? :lol:

Here's my desk:
mydesk-s.jpg
Wow! What do you do?

naisanza

30 Nov 2012, 23:48

shibbyllama wrote: I didn't find getting used to Pure's layout all that difficult, but there is a lot of muscle memory associated with the arrow key cluster. When I go through the motions of using the HHKB's arrow cluster on my Pure (pinky on Pure's tilde, fingers on [ ; ' / for the arrow keys), it seems like I would be stuck to using 2 fingers for the 4 directions. The ring finger is too far to the right and it's too awkward to use my thumb for the down arrow key.

I have tried switching Ctrl and Caps Lock on my Pure, and it's definitely nice and not that hard to get used to. My issue is at work I'm constantly using other workstations that have the normal layout. It wasn't easy switching back and forth so much throughout the day.

I agree PgUp, PgDn, Home and End aren't too bad to get to on the HHKB (though I wish PgUp/PgDn and Home/End were switched), but I found the Pure's layout easy to use as well. I don't ever use PgUp or PgDn though, and those are in a much worse position.

I agree completely that they should have shifted the arrow cluster to the right for the Pure. I still find myself gravitating to those keys. The only explanation I can come up with for placing them where they did is they didn't want you to be so close to the Enter key. Although the most egregious oversight on their part was putting Fn + L-Shift as Ctrl+Alt+Del. When jumping around text using the arrow keys, shift and Ctrl liberally, it's very easy to accidentally open the task manager. For example, when selecting text using the arrow keys, you have to make sure to hit L-Shift before hitting Fn to use the arrow keys. Very annoying.

Your layout proposal for the Pure would definitely be an improvement; I really wish the Pure was programmable. The GH60 keyboard may be the one for me.

Maybe I can train myself to be fluent in multiple layouts wherever necessary. I can be a polyglot of keyboard layouts!

You are definitely correct on that one. I only use my index and middle finger when using the diamond shaped arrows on the HHKB. I don't know what entails at your work place, but have you thought about bringing your keyboard and swapping it out at the workstation that you're at? I don't know what requires you to need to go from one workstation to the next.

If KBT really thought that way about why they didn't have the arrow keys next to the Enter key, I think they didn't do their homework very well. It's like saying, "The Windows key should be put on the back of the keyboard so people won't accidentally press it." Or something ridiculous like that. So rather than making it easier for the majority of people to use, they're going to inconvenience 80% of the population just for the 20% who don't know how to use a keyboard. I just find that very annoying right now, hence my angry tone... No offense to you, just, ticked. Yeah. Sigh.

I use PgUp and PgDn + Shift a lot in linux when I'm going through the history in the terminal.

Personally, I think the Pure was pushed out too quickly without putting through enough QA. I don't see any contenders of the HHKB coming out any time soon. The few new ones that have been mentioned on this thread is still no match for the HHKB or the Pure/Poker, I think. It's going be a sad next year or two for mechanical keyboards.

When I was using the Pure I would do that with the LSHIFT and Enter + Function key all the time. They should have made a dip switch to turn that off. Because how often does someone need to press CTRL+ALT+Del? and CTRL+SHIFT+ESC to get to the task manager?

I just got a Poker with Blues a few days ago, so I'm excited for that to come in. Luckily, for me all the computers that I use are ones that only I will use. The first thing I did was map the CAPS to LCTRL when I got my laptop. Then, I started bringing my keyboard to work and everything was gravy.

naisanza

30 Nov 2012, 23:51

woody wrote:Now go and get it to satisfy your own curiosity.
Agreed. :)

naisanza

30 Nov 2012, 23:52

shibbyllama wrote: Heh, I need time to properly form my argument for my wife. Usually I just say "what if you get another bag and I get another keyboard?" But at $300 that's a tough argument to make!
She probably has 50 pairs of shoes, each costing $150. That about justifies any of your own expenditures.

naisanza

30 Nov 2012, 23:59

rknize wrote:
naisanza wrote:It's definitely a collector's item, the HHKB. The only time's I ever found issues with not having dedicated arrow keys is when I'm trying to play a game that requires them, like tetris. With emulators, I could remap them, though.
I always got the impression that the nav cluster was tossed-in without much thought on the HHKB. This makes sense if most users are vi/emacs users. In another life, I had a MS Natural keyboard with the diamond layout. It drove me crazy switching back and forth between keyboards.
I always like to do when people say they can't use my keyboard is point to the logo and say, "Well, it's for professionals."

On a more serious note, I didn't feel they just threw in the nav cluster without much thought. I actually think they put in a lot of thought into it. I think it's fair to say it's exactly what the name of it says, it's a professional keyboard. It's not for gaming where you would want to have the regular arrow keys or any of that. I think it's the perfect keyboard for coding.

Now, where I do think the nav cluster was thrown in is on the Pure. That just felt like a mess to me.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

01 Dec 2012, 00:04

Once the HHKB layout is in your muscle memory, it makes standard layout keyboards crap. I usually remap standard boards to use HHKB layout. I use a Fn key on the left of the space bar on the HHKB with my thumb, which allows me to use the arrow keys without hand travel. It's much better than moving my hand all the way to an arrow cluster.

naisanza

01 Dec 2012, 00:06

Findecanor wrote:To comment on the poll: I voted tenkeyless, but I could do without the function row. Delete, arrow and nav keys are important to me, but they could be moved a bit to the left. I think that a HHKB/TKL hybrid could be nice.

As to mapping arrows to the function layer on a compact board, I think that having arrow keys as an inverse-T on IJKL and nav keys on their relative numpad positions to IJ and L would be best. In other words, as if you had an embedded numpad with an extra Down arow on '5' (K). Then you would be able to transition from home position to arrows without moving the fingers on the right hand, and you would find the nav keys in familiar places.
The one ingenious thing that the guys at KBC and KBT did was the arrow lock. I think that's the holy graal for all 60% keyboards to have. With the arrow lock I think it would make the 60% complete, because the only issue is where to put the arrow keys. HHKB made it as a diamond. The arrow lock would be a nice luxury to have on the HHKB, but I'll live. I can always plug in another keyboard or use a wireless keyboard remote as a controller if I really wanted to play tetris.

naisanza

01 Dec 2012, 00:08

trax wrote: The arrow layout on the hhkb is not the same as in vi which is a shame really.
Using the arrow keys on a hhkb is OK imo, when moving the cursor in a text document for example it feels alrite.

However playing a game (for example runescape) is a total pain and it actually hurts my hand after a while.
Yeah, that's the only gripe is when I want to play a game that needs the use of arrow keys. I'm sure there's a program out there like Autohotkey, or something that will let me launch on command with new mapping with a custom arrow.

naisanza

01 Dec 2012, 00:11

webwit wrote:Once the HHKB layout is in your muscle memory, it makes standard layout keyboards crap. I usually remap standard boards to use HHKB layout. I use a Fn key on the left of the space bar on the HHKB with my thumb, which allows me to use the arrow keys without hand travel. It's much better than moving my hand all the way to an arrow cluster.
With the HHKB (or I'd like to say, "The Real Layout") I dislike what came to be known as the standard layout, which is the opposite of improvement.

User avatar
rknize

01 Dec 2012, 03:04

webwit wrote:Once the HHKB layout is in your muscle memory, it makes standard layout keyboards crap. I usually remap standard boards to use HHKB layout. I use a Fn key on the left of the space bar on the HHKB with my thumb, which allows me to use the arrow keys without hand travel. It's much better than moving my hand all the way to an arrow cluster.
It's a nice idea, but it doesn't fly. I switch between too many physical work stations. The MS Natural taught me (other than the ergonomic aspect being somewhat of a farce) that switching between layouts becomes a bit of a hassle.

Now if someone gives me an HHKB...well I won't say no. :)

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Sugoi

02 Dec 2012, 02:21

I personally prefer 70% over 60% sized keyboards since I use the function and arrow keys quite often. Plus, I'm not the kind of person who revels in the luxury of having a number of different keyboards for different purposes, moods, or whatever. It's got to be an allrounder.

naisanza

04 Dec 2012, 15:01

Sugoi wrote:I personally prefer 70% over 60% sized keyboards since I use the function and arrow keys quite often. Plus, I'm not the kind of person who revels in the luxury of having a number of different keyboards for different purposes, moods, or whatever. It's got to be an allrounder.
What do you do that you need a dedicated F1-12 row? Just wondering.

I have only two (until I see something that I fancy). I needed one for work and wanted to keep my HHKB safe at home.

User avatar
CeeSA

04 Dec 2012, 16:00

You may use it not, but you know shortcuts with F keys. Didn't you? Just wondering.

F1 help, F3 search next, F2 rename, Alt F4 close, F11 toogle full size in Browser - thousands more.
Program media keys for volume, next, pause, mute etc.
Totalcommander is also nice to use with F keys many more programs have F keys for shortcut too.
It's not capslock ;)

naisanza

04 Dec 2012, 16:08

CeeSA wrote:You may use it not, but you know shortcuts with F keys. Didn't you? Just wondering.

F1 help, F3 search next, F2 rename, Alt F4 close, F11 toogle full size in Browser - thousands more.
Program media keys for volume, next, pause, mute etc.
Totalcommander is also nice to use with F keys many more programs have F keys for shortcut too.
It's not capslock ;)
I never use F1, I use manpages or Google for help ;)

F2 - rename
F3 - search
F5 - Steam screenshot
F6 - Volume up
F7 - Volume down
F8 - Bring up Steam overlay
F9 - Fraps take screenshot
F10 - Fraps start/stop record video
F12 - Fraps overlay

I use the F1-12 row a lot and have never needed a dedicated F1-12 row to use them.

I don't even have a functional capslock. That's been changed to what it originally was, a CTRL :)

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Hypersphere

25 Jun 2013, 02:05

This discussion is an education for me. Until recently, I was using an IBM Model M. My setup includes 3 computers (each running a different OS -- Mac, Linux, and Windows) and 3 monitors connected via a KVM and Synergy. However, owing to a shoulder injury, I found that the position of the mouse was uncomfortably far to the right. A colleague suggested a TKL board, and I just acquired a Filco TKL Ninja with Cherry Blues. Although my accuracy and speed have suffered while transitioning away from the incomparable buckling springs, I have realized that I really do not need the numerical keypad. Wondering if I had found the ideal board in a TKL, my research led to the 60% boards. However, these compact boards do not give me substantially more room for the mouse, and do not seem worth the trouble of adjusting to Fn layers. Nevertheless, I am growing to appreciate the elegance, simplicity, and attendant aesthetics of the compact boards. Therefore, I remain ready to be convinced.

naisanza

26 Jun 2013, 00:58

rjrich wrote:This discussion is an education for me. Until recently, I was using an IBM Model M. My setup includes 3 computers (each running a different OS -- Mac, Linux, and Windows) and 3 monitors connected via a KVM and Synergy. However, owing to a shoulder injury, I found that the position of the mouse was uncomfortably far to the right. A colleague suggested a TKL board, and I just acquired a Filco TKL Ninja with Cherry Blues. Although my accuracy and speed have suffered while transitioning away from the incomparable buckling springs, I have realized that I really do not need the numerical keypad. Wondering if I had found the ideal board in a TKL, my research led to the 60% boards. However, these compact boards do not give me substantially more room for the mouse, and do not seem worth the trouble of adjusting to Fn layers. Nevertheless, I am growing to appreciate the elegance, simplicity, and attendant aesthetics of the compact boards. Therefore, I remain ready to be convinced.
Glad it's growing on you! For me, with my background and personality, when I first saw the HHKB, and I remember this still. It was late at night at my college apartment, and I have been looking at mechanical keyboard all day since 5PM. I was looking at Das' and Ducky's, then the ChocoMini caught my eye. I really liked the smaller form factor, so I started looking for compact mechanical keyboards. Three hours later and I've felt I've seen everything, and just as I'm about to buy the ChocoMini, I see the HHKB. Instantly, I knew I loved it and bought it. It's been three years now and it's still my favorite keyboard. It'll be the only keyboard I'll ever buy after being disappointed with the KBC Poker and KBT Pure; the Pure is the worst that's why I leave that one at work.

If I were to be picky, the only thing missing from the HHKB is an arrow-lock feature and inverted-T arrow keys.

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Hypersphere

02 Jul 2013, 20:19

Yes, it is comments like yours about the HHKB that help persuade me that I ought to try it. The attitude about the HHKB is akin to what I have seen about the Mac. People do not merely like or dislike these machines, they love them or hate them.

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Eszett

21 May 2014, 01:36

Can you HHKB guys tell me why you don't miss arrow keys? To access arrows via key combinations does seem awkward for me, or is this a wrong assumption?

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Muirium
µ

21 May 2014, 01:51

It's not for everyone. But some of us get really used to it. The space saving with a 60% is pretty damn serious, and some are into it for symmetry too, like me. I made a point of learning the HHKB arrow cluster (and Page Up/Down and Home/End too) on my IBM XT here because it has a key in the right place (right of right Shift) to simulate the HHKB's hardware layout:

Image

My plan was to use it as training while I saved up for an HHKB. But it really paid off when I got my Kishsaver, which relies on an HHKB function layer for all navigation:

Image

Best. 60%. Ever!

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trax

21 May 2014, 09:58

Eszett wrote:Can you HHKB guys tell me why you don't miss arrow keys? To access arrows via key combinations does seem awkward for me, or is this a wrong assumption?
Using the arrow keys on a HHKB is what probably took me the longest to get used to.
Right now I'm mainly working with Vim (or programs with Vim plugins).

The easiest way (imho) is to press the dedicated fn key (right from right shift) with your pinky finger and use the arrow keys as you would on an standard layout. It doesn't feel awkward at all. But it still requires hand movement. If you use your arrow keys a lot (probably less once you get a HHKB) you could do what webwit does:
webwit wrote:...I use a Fn key on the left of the space bar on the HHKB with my thumb, which allows me to use the arrow keys without hand travel...
Although I'm unable to do this (I guess my hands are too small).

It is also true that I'm unable to press UP + LEFT + RIGHT at the same time

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Hypersphere

21 May 2014, 14:16

trax wrote:
Eszett wrote:Can you HHKB guys tell me why you don't miss arrow keys? To access arrows via key combinations does seem awkward for me, or is this a wrong assumption?
Using the arrow keys on a HHKB is what probably took me the longest to get used to.
Right now I'm mainly working with Vim (or programs with Vim plugins).

The easiest way (imho) is to press the dedicated fn key (right from right shift) with your pinky finger and use the arrow keys as you would on an standard layout. It doesn't feel awkward at all. But it still requires hand movement. If you use your arrow keys a lot (probably less once you get a HHKB) you could do what webwit does:
webwit wrote:...I use a Fn key on the left of the space bar on the HHKB with my thumb, which allows me to use the arrow keys without hand travel...
Although I'm unable to do this (I guess my hands are too small).

It is also true that I'm unable to press UP + LEFT + RIGHT at the same time
Before trying the HHKB, I thought the lack of arrow keys would be the deal-breaker. To my pleasant surprise, I found the Fn + cursor diamond of the HHKB extremely intuitive and efficient -- so much so that I have remapped my standard keyboards in this manner.

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Eszett

21 May 2014, 17:37

Thanks, for your experience with the HHKB arrows issue.

woody
Count Troller

21 May 2014, 17:38

Arrows on HHKB are somewhat OK, although cursoring too much gets tiresome.
PgUp/PgDn are bearable.
Home/End make me cringe.

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