deskthority

Realy asking for one keyboard, with extra switch isn't much(amount of stabilizers is the same and laser isn't so hard to program). And I belive it would sell well, being only thing out there.

I used to go between ANSI and ISO regularly and it didn't make a difference to me. I do not consider myself to be a picky person though, maybe that has something to do with it.

kbdfr wrote: Other arguments against ANSI: the missing key the position of which is occupied by the long left Shift key, and the most important argument in my eyes:x the silly shape of the key above the Enter key, which is bigger not because its use justifies it, but just because there is room to fill.

I moved from ISO to ANSI because I found ANSI better... way better. The left shift is harder to reach on ISO keyboards... such a heavily used key, on a corner, needs to be long. Even the Enter is easier to reach with ANSI, there's just 1 key between the pinky (resting on the home row) whereas in ISO you have to jump 2 colums to reach the Enter. And don't get me started on those keyboard variants with the huge Enter and the short backspace, short backspace = FAIL. Anyway, I am very sensitive to ergonomics, and ANSI is just better ergonomically. It was immediately evident to me as I switched.

Somehow it's nice to see we all define ergonomics differently

sordna wrote:The left shift is harder to reach on ISO keyboards... such a heavily used key, on a corner, needs to be long.

But as a matter of fact, the heaviest use of the left Shift is certainly made by German typists, as in German all nouns begin with a capital (The cat eats the mouse = Die Katze frisst die Maus), and yet German typists have no problem with the short left Shift and don't miss it.

sordna wrote:Even the Enter is easier to reach with ANSI, there's just 1 key between the pinky (resting on the home row) whereas in ISO you have to jump 2 colums to reach the Enter.

My pinky hardly ever rests on the home row as my fingers (and hands) are always moving - and as they move more up and down than sidewards, I find it much better to have the Enter key stretched upon two rows than two columns.

sordna wrote:And don't get me started on those keyboard variants with the huge Enter and the short backspace, short backspace = FAIL.

Here I do agree with you - but I thought huge Enter and short Backspace keys are mostly found on ANSI keyboards

Anyway, that's like sleeping on your back, your belly or your side: the way one has it is mostly felt as the way everyone should have it

You are denying inferior hand travel distance with silly talk. First you speak for all German typists, which is not actually an argument that takes away the extra travel to the short shift. Then you argue that more travel to Enter is better because you don't rest your pinky on the home row. Right. I'm not convinced.

Strangely you then conclude you are a being of habit and thus limited in your ways to improve. Ah yes, all things are equal and everyone wins. Only in fantasy land. That's usually an argument used by people who are losing the argument.

The guys who tried both and switched are winning. If you lose this argument, we'll have to send you to a correctional camp to learn the proper way!

webwit wrote:You are denying inferior hand travel distance ...

You should not argue about distances of just 1 unit with people who think a G80-2100 is a space saver!

Hmm. The proper way?! I'm baffled by any argument that pitches ANSI vs ISO since they only exist due to tradition (mass habit), and the differences between them are minor compared to any of the more ergonomic layouts!

ISO left shift is only as far away from the home position as right shift is, and both are closer than even the ANSI enter. I may have big hands, but I can use the ISO left shift without removing my ring finger from 'S', and it doesn't feel awkward at all. However, Tab is slightly awkward without allowing my ring finger to move a bit. A pure distance metric doesn't account for that.

webwit wrote:You are denying inferior hand travel distance with silly talk. First you speak for all German typists, which is not actually an argument that takes away the extra travel to the short shift. Then you argue that more travel to Enter is better because you don't rest your pinky on the home row. Right. I'm not convinced.

Strangely you then conclude you are a being of habit and thus limited in your ways to improve. Ah yes, all things are equal and everyone wins. Only in fantasy land. That's usually an argument used by people who are losing the argument.

The guys who tried both and switched are winning. If you lose this argument, we'll have to send you to a correctional camp to learn the proper way!

Sorry, I did switch from ISO to ANSI - and then back.

OK, I confess I returned to ISO only because I hated that silly looking [/|] key, but just didn't want to admit ANSI is superior in all regards. Then I have to admit German typists miss the short left Enter key every second time (that's the true reason why there are words like "Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz" in German). and then I must concede I just started arguing because I wanted to pick a quarrel.
So no need to send me to the correctional camp - I'm already on my way there.

7bit wrote:

webwit wrote:You are denying inferior hand travel distance ...

You should not argue about distances of just 1 unit with people who think a G80-2100 is a space saver!

Sure you tried it. I believe you!

Short left shifts don't bother me, probably because my typing style developed in such a way that I always hit the far left end of the key. What does bother me about the ISO arrangement in regards to the shift is the key that sits between Shift and Z... I find it quite uncomfortable to hit. The key above enter is a little bit out of the way, but it's less awkward to deal with.

webwit wrote:Sure you tried it. I believe you!

OK, you're right again (in the meantime I'm in the correctional camp and already learnt the first lesson: "don't argue").

You need reinforcements. The French will never succumb to a Yankee layout this easy.

@I-want-ISO-whiners: another reason pro ANSI is the far higher number of available keyboards to choose from and to play with. No whining when the next cool thing comes out. New ISO boards will always be the rare exception for the simple reason that they can sell more of just a single ANSI version.

lal wrote:@I-want-ISO-whiners: another reason pro ANSI is the far higher number of available keyboards to choose from and to play with. No whining when the next cool thing comes out. New ISO boards will always be the rare exception for the simple reason that they can sell more of just a single ANSI version.

You may choose answer 1 or answer 2 below.


Answer 1:

Very good argument (correctional camp lesson 2: "don't argue"). I completely forgot the business aspect of the matter.

Indeed everybody happily threw away their keyboards and bought new ones when a new key effecting nothing else than Ctrl+Esc (aka Winkey) was introduced. The business rationale was obvious, and it worked. Just great!
The progress for the user was huge: hitting just one key instead of a two key shortcut.


Answer 2

@I-want-mechanical-whiners: another reason pro rubberdome is the far higher number of available keyboards to choose from and to play with. No whining when the next cool thing comes out. New mechanical boards will always be the rare exception for the simple reason that they can sell more of just a single rubberdome model.

I wouldn't have much issues if there were one ISO for each 5 Ansi boards, but we aren't getting even that one.

Also, ANSI is far far more uglier layout, with that mutant key...

Ekaros wrote:mutant key...

There's one thing where ANSI (or at least English) layout is clearly superior, though: the use of a single key for both versions of the "non-letter" characters like the various brackets or the semicolon.
Too bad that is not the case precisely for the most used of those characters: the parentheses (round brackets), the left one and the right one being placed on two different keys - and requiring Shift.

Next I'll explain why ANSI keyboards even smell better than ISO keyboards

ANSI sucks. Unless it's HHKB ANSI.

webwit wrote:ANSI sucks. Unless it's HHKB ANSI.

I think you mean ISO sucks?

Ah wait!

Both suck because you use Data Hand layout!

From the keycaps point of view, my 122 key Tipro is the best, because it requires only up to 4 sizes of keys:
1 unit, 1.5 units, 2 units (only needed if you like super-stiff function keys) and 4 units for the spacebar which can be easily avoided by employing a 1.5 units key instead.

Ekaros wrote:...
Also, ANSI is far far more uglier layout, with that mutant key...

What do you call a mutant key? I aggree that keys with 2.25 or 2.75 units are far too long and should be split up, but the J-shape return is 2.75 units long if you sum up the lengths in both rows, so this should be split up too!


Not too bad, but it is not done well, because the extra wide cursor keys make no sense.

Top row: throw away those 1.5 units keys and make them 1 unit wide.
12345465-row: split up backspace into 2 keys.
QWERTY-row: make \| the backspace key
ASDFG-row: split up Return to make room for cursor movement keys
ZXCVB-row: split up left shift, to get an extra key for whatever.
pusch too wide cursor key together and you can fit regular Round 4 key caps on this keyboard!
bottom row: get rid of this anachronisticly wide space bar to make room for more modifiers and a delete key in a proper place!
Finally, remove that unnecessary fuction row and put Escape left of 1!

7bit wrote:

Ekaros wrote:...
Also, ANSI is far far more uglier layout, with that mutant key...

What do you call a mutant key?

Obviously Ekaros means the \| key, the only character key which is 1.5 for the logical reason that there happened to be space left which had to be filled anyhow and... ooops, correctional camp lesson 3: "don't argue".

kbdfr wrote:...
ooops, correctional camp lesson 2: "don't argue against webwit unless you have scientifically proven arguments".

fixed that for you.

kbdfr wrote:

7bit wrote:

Ekaros wrote:...
Also, ANSI is far far more uglier layout, with that mutant key...

What do you call a mutant key?

Obviously Ekaros means the \| key, the only character key which is 1.5 for the logical reason that there happened to be space left which had to be filled anyhow and... ooops, correctional camp lesson 3: "don't argue".

I believe that TAB is the same size.

Minskleip wrote:

kbdfr wrote:

7bit wrote:What do you call a mutant key?

(...) the \| key, the only character key which is 1.5 for the logical reason that there happened to be space left which had to be filled anyhow and... ooops, correctional camp lesson 3: "don't argue".

I believe that TAB is the same size.

Of course there are several keys bigger than 1.0 on a keyboard, but the \| key is the only character key (i.e. key printing a letter, a number or a sign) which is not 1.0. Apart of course from the spacebar, the size of which obviously has functional reasons.

Please note that this is just to explain what the term "character key" intended to mean (correctional camp lesson 4: "don't argue").

You mean non-printable character?

Well, rather the opposite: I mean printable characters like the following:
h F r 3 B " ) n 8 ? 0 ' ; § & $ \ | < *

They're all 1.0 except for the "mutant key" \| (© Ekaros) which is 1.5.
At least in ANSI.

kbdfr wrote:Well, rather the opposite: I mean printable characters like the following:
h F r 3 B " ) n 8 ? 0 ' ; § & $ \ | < *

They're all 1.0 except for the "mutant key" \| (© Ekaros) which is 1.5.
At least in ANSI.

It just strikes me, that the main-keyfield of a standard keyboard could be 14.5 units wide instead of 15 units if it weren't for those ISO fetishists ....

7bit wrote:[It just strikes me, that the main-keyfield of a standard keyboard could be 14.5 units wide instead of 15 units if it weren't for those ISO fetishists ....

But then in ANSI keyboards you would have to reduce the width of one of the Shift keys by 0.5 unit, a proposal obviously considered to be some kind of criminal offence

kbdfr wrote:

7bit wrote:[It just strikes me, that the main-keyfield of a standard keyboard could be 14.5 units wide instead of 15 units if it weren't for those ISO fetishists ....

But then in ANSI keyboards you would have to reduce the width of one of the Shift keys by 0.5 unit, a proposal obviously considered to be some kind of criminal offence

1.5 units Back Space (this would be a new key in that row)
1 unit |\ (same as any key)
1.75 units Return (same as Caps Lock)
2.25 units right Shift (same as left Shift)
reduce the gaps between Alt and Control by 0.25 units and the space bar needs no re-design!

7bit wrote:

kbdfr wrote:

7bit wrote:[It just strikes me, that the main-keyfield of a standard keyboard could be 14.5 units wide instead of 15 units if it weren't for those ISO fetishists ....

But then in ANSI keyboards you would have to reduce the width of one of the Shift keys by 0.5 unit, a proposal obviously considered to be some kind of criminal offence

1.5 units Back Space (this would be a new key in that row)
1 unit |\ (same as any key)
1.75 units Return (same as Caps Lock)
2.25 units right Shift (same as left Shift)
reduce the gaps between Alt and Control by 0.25 units and the space bar needs no re-design!

Do you realize you are just proposing to reduce the width of keys on ANSI keyboards?
Welcome to the correctional camp you're no doubt going to be sent to

kbdfr wrote:Do you realize you are just proposing to reduce the width of keys on ANSI keyboards?
Welcome to the correctional camp you're no doubt going to be sent to

You misunderstood webwit!

From the touch-typist point of view, there would be noch change ar all, becuase they never look at their keyboards and hit the big keys always where they can reach them easiest, so cutting off some of those extra wide keys, left and right of the keyboard would never ever do any harm to them.

7bit wrote:You misunderstood webwit!

From the touch-typist point of view, there would be noch change ar all, becuase they never look at their keyboards and hit the big keys always where they can reach them easiest, so cutting off some of those extra wide keys, left and right of the keyboard would never ever do any harm to them.

I seem to misunderstand not only webwit:

sordna wrote:(...) short backspace = FAIL. (...) and ANSI is just better ergonomically. It was immediately evident to me as I switched.

Note that I wouldn't dream of arguing, by the way (correctional camp lesson 5: "don't argue").