deskthority

I had a chance to do the early bird option, but hesitated. Strongly considering a TKL with linear a side set of beam spring switches.

Welp, shut up and take my money, I suppose.

I'm in for one!

Chyros wrote: 18 Jul 2019, 18:01 The Hall effect linear switch is most definitely a great development, but Wooting are also making one, and their previous switch was excellent, so I'm sure the two will be hefty competition to each other on this front. I reckon the clicky, beamspring-type switch is going to be a USP, though.

I am definitely excited and look forward to all of this new competition.

Hefty competition sounds pretty accurate.

Chyros wrote: 16 Jul 2019, 21:19 Noice! If you can tolerate the size, the battleship is one of the best keyboards around IMO!

I love it. It makes me feel like I'm on the bridge of the USS Enterprise or something lol. The only thing I changed is I put one of those big-ass enter keys in it cause I dont like the iso enter.

Weezer wrote: 18 Jul 2019, 22:24

Chyros wrote: 16 Jul 2019, 21:19 Noice! If you can tolerate the size, the battleship is one of the best keyboards around IMO!

I love it. It makes me feel like I'm on the bridge of the USS Enterprise or something lol. The only thing I changed is I put one of those big-ass enter keys in it cause I dont like the iso enter.

F122 bith Big ass enter... hghnn

SneakyRobb wrote: 19 Jul 2019, 00:00

Weezer wrote: 18 Jul 2019, 22:24

Chyros wrote: 16 Jul 2019, 21:19 Noice! If you can tolerate the size, the battleship is one of the best keyboards around IMO!

I love it. It makes me feel like I'm on the bridge of the USS Enterprise or something lol. The only thing I changed is I put one of those big-ass enter keys in it cause I dont like the iso enter.

F122 bith Big ass enter... hghnn

I might be one of the only people who doesn't like the BAE. I don't know why, but I accidentally hit it instead of ' more often than I'd like. It was more of a problem on that awful Zowie Celeritas keyboard though.

It's too bad I:C/Kono have no plan on improving on the Ergodox. I wouldn't mind getting an ergo+beamswitch-like board

I wish they offered an aluminum case option for the keystone.

So assume I don't do the kickstarter. Will I be able to get one at a later date, (likely for a higher price). I've unfortunately used most of my reasonable disposable income on video games.

I bet you'll be able to buy it on kono store

Hmm. I noticed something:

The latest switch renders/prototypes have fixing pins — on the same line as where the Hall effect sensor would be. Because you can't put a sensor and a fixing pin hole in the same position, this would restrict your ability to offer alternative switch position next to one-another (or you may have to rotate a switch 90° and thereby lose backlighting).
You would lose an advantage that Silo would otherwise have had over capacitive-sensing keyboards such as Topre and foam-and-foil: those require quite large pads on the PCB, which restricts options. Key Tronic's old boards support both ISO and ANSI, but that's it.

After checking out my budget sheet for next month and realizing all things I'm planning to buy, I'm going to hold off and hope for a revision after any and all issues are ironed out with the first run.

So what are the odds that these silo switches will fit into an apt hall effect kb?

snarfbot wrote: 14 Aug 2019, 17:41 So what are the odds that these silo switches will fit into an apt hall effect kb?

Virtually zero, I reckon.

As I understand it, these switches don't have normal contact pins. The connection is essentially magnetic rather than friction-contact. The only keyboard with a PCB capable of mating up with them is the Keystone.

derp

Heh. I've seen interest from someone to put these into a Dactyl — and that would absolutely require one-switch PCBs.
Fixing pins and plate-clips would also be essential switch parts for such builds, but they may still need glue.

I suppose XMIT's and Input.Club's keyboards use similar hall effect sensors:

XMIT wrote: 19 Apr 2019, 03:34 With some effort these could be made into retrofits for existing XMIT boards. Though, I can't promise the actuation would be at the right place.

At the point he wrote that, the shown prototype switch did not have fixing pins.

Going from the force curves, do you think the silo beam switches will feel like genuine IBM beamspring switches?

Force curve is just part of the story. The force curve on modern linear MX switches is the same as vintage MX, but they feel so much scratchier you can’t believe it side-by-side. Then there’s things like materials and their weights. Real beam spring has a lot of metal flying around, and you feel it.

derp

Scratchiness is noise. You know what it’s like: you feel it more when you press the switch slower through its travel. I don’t get how that could be captured by a 1:1 mapping of force to distance. Scratch is all over the place.

And my point about metal is: acceleration. My Roland FP-30 electric piano goes to great lengths to give the swing of grand piano keys. Every mechanism has a weighted hammer which swings much like the hammers do in an acoustic piano. You feel their weight. And you feel it very differently when you press lightly or heavily or anywhere in between. This is crucial in a musical instrument, as emphasis makes all the difference in playing. But even in a simple digital typing keyboard, where there is no “velocity” the USB HID cares about, your fingers still do. I get so much more, how to say it, “expression” from Topre than even the smoothest linear.

We notice this stuff. There’s more to it than a brutally simplistic force = function(travel) reduction. You feel the weight, expressed differently at varying speeds. It shows up as a sense of mass, working against and then with you, as you throw it. It’s the perception of weighted speed.

derp

davkol wrote: 19 Nov 2019, 15:46 'Scratchiness' is a result of unevenness typically in the stem of 'linear MX switches'. It's visible in measurements like these (though I've seen comparisons of different generations of MX switches as well).

Looks like noise to me.



Move the slider slowly, and it dominates the signal.

Velocity might matter in more complex types of switches, but it's not impossible to measure either (it can even be adjustable, example); human body and sensing isn't anything magical.

Indeed. There’s nothing magical about grand piano innards either. But they sure do contain a lot of weight flying around, and perform very differently at every speed.

The best keyboard mechanisms (correct answers: IBM beam spring and Topre) have similar, albeit much less pronounced characteristics. These dynamics need more than a trivial 1:1 mapping from travel to force. That’s static. They’re not.

xicanoink wrote: 16 Jul 2019, 19:39 Anyone have an Input Club board?

Are they legit?

What do you guys think about their claims that their new one is Beamspring-like?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/le ... wards_page

I did look at these (on the Kono web store of all things) and from what I can tell, these have a similar steep tactility, and a very dissimilar rounded travel. I love the concept, and I think that it is one of the more interesting things happening right now in mechanical keyboards

Newbie speaking here, but looking at the picture given to show off their 'beam spring switch' it looks to be nothing like a beam-spring, and very much like the MX design. Doesn't a switch need to have the mechanism of a beam spring in it to be called a 'beam spring switch'? (I'm thinking of the IBM beamspring ofcourse.)

Furthermore, is it even possible to get beam spring type feel, solidness and sound by simply adjusting the force curve on an MX switch (which is essentially what this is...)?

Ms Reason and Ms Vintage Ibm Fan had a debate, that went more or less like this:

Reason: This is the keyboard you typically don't want. Features you despise and consider as gadgets, like backlighting, features you don't care about (hall-effect), and a price you never saw applied to good quality keyboards when new.

VIF: Beamspring. Low profile. On a TKL. Programmable.

Reason: Tell me how durable a hall-effect keyboard gets when dust accumulates...

VIF: Beamspring. And perhaps a 60% someday. If beamspring switches become common place, 60% are bound to happen.

Reason: ...and tell me how durable it gets when made with modern days plastic.

VIF: Beamspring. Beamspring. Beamspring.

Reason: you are getting overwhelmed by your beamspring bias.

VIF: Beeeeeeeeemspriiing! (bring down a brand new model F f62 on Reason's head)

And then I ordered a Keystone. With Beamsprings.

anmq91 wrote: 22 Dec 2019, 13:38 Newbie speaking here, but looking at the picture given to show off their 'beam spring switch' it looks to be nothing like a beam-spring, and very much like the MX design. Doesn't a switch need to have the mechanism of a beam spring in it to be called a 'beam spring switch'? (I'm thinking of the IBM beamspring ofcourse.)

Furthermore, is it even possible to get beam spring type feel, solidness and sound by simply adjusting the force curve on an MX switch (which is essentially what this is...)?

It's not an MX switch - it isn't even compatible with MX PCBs. The force curve seems similar to a beamspring and the sound test seems promising. The force curve, key feel and sound is the only thing they are trying to replicate from the original beamspring. As for mechanism of action, the input club switch uses hall effect sensing - which is completely different to the capacitive sensing on the original beamspring keyboards.

I talked to a couple people on Discord that tried the Silo beam switch prototypes. They reported it feels a bit more like click bar and quite a bit different vs the IBM design. I guess that makes sense when you shrink everything down so much. Lets hope they improve the final version before launch.

tron wrote: 11 Feb 2020, 04:09 I talked to a couple people on Discord that tried the Silo beam switch prototypes. They reported it feels a bit more like click bar and quite a bit different vs the IBM design. I guess that makes sense when you shrink everything down so much. Lets hope they improve the final version before launch.

Being a small IBM fan I was afraid of this, like you said I hope that they can refine it so it feels close to a beamspring. If they cannot get the feeling down right then I think after the kickstarter the switch will not really go anywhere.

davkol wrote: 16 Aug 2019, 13:11 I wish there were one-piece PCBs with sensors for these, something like Amoeba. For building custom keyboards with different layouts. But I guess it's not realistic any time soon.

The Beam force curve looks lovely… not enough to make me go back to an ANSI tenkeyless, though.

Agreed. Would be nice to slap these hall effect switches into a dactyl-manuform. QMK support would be nice too.