deskthority

Trev wrote: Me and the 87U Silent are now in an exclusive long-term relationship I still hate the bubble keys, but have accepted that she's not perfect. I'll swap them out some day. Ideally, I'd like to have the bottom row showing correct Mac modifier legends too.

I still have my KBT Pure built-up with ergo-clears/stickers/etc, but it's now on TV media-centre duty.

Everyone is entitled to their own experiences and opinions, but I can't personally see myself finding a better keyboard unless Topre upgrades their own hardware somehow. Cherry and Co just aren't even playing the same game (IMO).

Perhaps when the product is launched (lawyers, NDA right now...) I can show off what all of these key-presses contributed to.

Afternoon Trev. Potentially good news on the future keyboard front: Filco's going Bluetooth and where one Japanese manufacturer leads, we can hope another follows.

http://deskthority.net/news-reviews-f4/ ... t6462.html

I've my fingers crossed for a Bluetooth HHKB Pro 3 at some point.

Muirium wrote:

Trev wrote: Me and the 87U Silent are now in an exclusive long-term relationship I still hate the bubble keys, but have accepted that she's not perfect. I'll swap them out some day. Ideally, I'd like to have the bottom row showing correct Mac modifier legends too.

I still have my KBT Pure built-up with ergo-clears/stickers/etc, but it's now on TV media-centre duty.

Everyone is entitled to their own experiences and opinions, but I can't personally see myself finding a better keyboard unless Topre upgrades their own hardware somehow. Cherry and Co just aren't even playing the same game (IMO).

Perhaps when the product is launched (lawyers, NDA right now...) I can show off what all of these key-presses contributed to.

Afternoon Trev. Potentially good news on the future keyboard front: Filco's going Bluetooth and where one Japanese manufacturer leads, we can hope another follows.

http://deskthority.net/news-reviews-f4/ ... t6462.html

I've my fingers crossed for a Bluetooth HHKB Pro 3 at some point.

That is good news. I'm hoping for a BT HHKB model built to a similar or better spec as the tenkeyless models

Trev, Welcome back! After following your posts about the HHKB Pro 2 and then the RF 87u, I have acquired a Leopold FC660C and fallen in love with Topre switches. However, although I like the form factor and layout of the Leo, I would like better keycaps, like those on the white/gray HHKB Pro 2 or white/gray RF 87u, so I am considering these keyboards. I am curious to know if you still like your RF 87u, despite the fact that you found it "underwhelming".

rjrich wrote:Trev, Welcome back! After following your posts about the HHKB Pro 2 and then the RF 87u, I have acquired a Leopold FC660C and fallen in love with Topre switches. However, although I like the form factor and layout of the Leo, I would like better keycaps, like those on the white/gray HHKB Pro 2 or white/gray RF 87u, so I am considering these keyboards. I am curious to know if you still like your RF 87u, despite the fact that you found it "underwhelming".

They are underwhelming, yes. I can't imagine many people trying them for the first time and being blown away. I stayed away from the FC660C because of the keycaps and the cheaper build quality (not that it's particularly bad, it's just not on par with Realforce).

I smash away at the 87U every day and have yet to find anything better I'm very familiar with the feel, so wouldn't really want to switch.

I think the only way to acquire Mac modifier keys is to order a spare HHKB set. Kind of expensive for just a few key caps.

The thing that I am most jealous of with the FC660C is the PBT space bar.
I was quietly hoping that Topre would've struck a deal with Leopold on this. "OK, sure...we'll help you out with a capacitive switch keyboard. Now let's talk about estimating shrink rates of PBT plastic"

002 wrote:The thing that I am most jealous of with the FC660C is the PBT space bar.
I was quietly hoping that Topre would've struck a deal with Leopold on this. "OK, sure...we'll help you out with a capacitive switch keyboard. Now let's talk about estimating shrink rates of PBT plastic"

Damn, I'd almost forgotten about the cheap ABS spacebar. Now I'm always hearing it

Isn't PBT about texture, slower wear, and avoiding yellowing, while stabilisers are what cause the sound?

Unstabilised keys are so much nicer. (Looks enviously at itty-bitty Japanese layout space bars.)

Hard to beat the stability of 2.5u

002 wrote:The thing that I am most jealous of with the FC660C is the PBT space bar.
I was quietly hoping that Topre would've struck a deal with Leopold on this. "OK, sure...we'll help you out with a capacitive switch keyboard. Now let's talk about estimating shrink rates of PBT plastic"

Most F660C users report that the space bar is ABS just like the Realforce and HHKB not PBT. Some on GH say they put tape on them to avoid shine. I may be wrong but I believe they are ABS on the Leopold.

PBT isn't impervious to shining I don't think. It just takes longer. When you think about how often the space bar is pressed, it's not too hard to believe that even a PBT one will develop shine after a while.

I stand by the suggestion that they are PBT space bars on the FC660C. It's advertised more than once on Leopold's website (go there and hover over the '1' on the main banner, then look at the features list). The all-PBT setup was already used in the Leopold FC700 series keyboards before the 660C anyway.

Trev wrote:

rjrich wrote:Trev, Welcome back! After following your posts about the HHKB Pro 2 and then the RF 87u, I have acquired a Leopold FC660C and fallen in love with Topre switches. However, although I like the form factor and layout of the Leo, I would like better keycaps, like those on the white/gray HHKB Pro 2 or white/gray RF 87u, so I am considering these keyboards. I am curious to know if you still like your RF 87u, despite the fact that you found it "underwhelming".

They are underwhelming, yes. I can't imagine many people trying them for the first time and being blown away. I stayed away from the FC660C because of the keycaps and the cheaper build quality (not that it's particularly bad, it's just not on par with Realforce).

I smash away at the 87U every day and have yet to find anything better I'm very familiar with the feel, so wouldn't really want to switch.

I think the only way to acquire Mac modifier keys is to order a spare HHKB set. Kind of expensive for just a few key caps.

Trev,

I've forgotten -- Did you opt for the variable-weight RF or the uniform 45-g or 55-g version? Based on comments I've seen on DT and GH, some people believe that the distinct Topre feel is not fully realized until moving up to the 55-g version.

That said, I have at least temporarily set aside my IBM SSK (in my home office), and I have been using the Leopold FC660C (with 45-gram Topres) for the past two weeks or so. I never thought any keyboard could displace my IBM buckling springs, but the Topres are doing a great job of stealing my affection.

Nevertheless, my OCD tendencies continually distract me. I keep looking at the keycaps, wishing they were high-end dye-sub PBT like those on my SSK or like those I've seen on the white/gray versions of the HHKB Pro 2 or RF 87u.

Moreover, in addition to worrying about the keycaps, and despite the fact that I like the ~ 60+% form factor, I remain bothered by the broken symmetry of the arrow cluster and Insert/Delete keys. Although part of me prefers a sub-TKL board, another part loves the symmetry of the navigation island on a TKL or even full-size keyboard.

I remain drawn to the elegant design of the HHKB Pro 2, but I strongly suspect I would have great difficulty adjusting to the layout and absence of dedicated arrow keys.

The answer for me might lie in an upgraded version of the Leopold FC660C. It would be great if Realforce would decide to produce a high-end board along these lines. It would also seem that we are overdue for an update from PFU -- the HHKB Pro 3, with dedicated arrow keys, complete programmability, and a Bluetooth option.

Bluetooth is the only one I'm looking out for on the next HHKB. I'd love programmability but frankly don't see it happening. Dedicated arrow keys? Well, that one exists already. Chock full of other compromises too.

The best thing about the HHKB is its uncompromising 60%. No nonsense like arrow keys or extra islands, just bare bones brilliance, and an awesome set of white dyesubbed PBTs (so long as you get the right one, Ne0phyte) that put even IBM's to shame. It's an awesome looking and feeling board. If only I had the coin and the Pro 2 wasn't looking so long in the tooth…

002 wrote:PBT isn't impervious to shining I don't think. It just takes longer. When you think about how often the space bar is pressed, it's not too hard to believe that even a PBT one will develop shine after a while.

I stand by the suggestion that they are PBT space bars on the FC660C. It's advertised more than once on Leopold's website (go there and hover over the '1' on the main banner, then look at the features list). The all-PBT setup was already used in the Leopold FC700 series keyboards before the 660C anyway.

According to the EK site in the features list under the Leopold FC660C, "High durability PBT (polybutylene terephthalate) keycaps (Spacebar is ABS)."

However, again from the EK site in the features list for the Leopold FC660M, "High durability PBT (polybutylene terephthalate) keycaps." That is, in the case of the FC660M, they do not single out the spacebar to indicate if it is PBT or ABS.

In any event, I bought a blank white PBT set for the KC84 from Banggood for about 18 USD shipped, mainly for the spacebar, which does appear to be PBT. It turns out that the KC84 spacebar fits the Leopold FC660M.

All this is now beside the point for me, because I have discovered that I much prefer the Topre switches in the FC660C over the Cherry (blue) switches in the FC660M. In fact, I prefer the Topres over any Cherry mx switch I have ever tried, including brown, blue, black, white, and green.

Well...I guess I was wrong
Ripster tested the spacebar on the FC660C using acetone and it appears to be ABS. There you go...

002 wrote:Well...I guess I was wrong
Ripster tested the spacebar on the FC660C using acetone and it appears to be ABS. There you go...

Whatever it is made of, I like the spacebar on my FC660C better than the spacebars on most of my keyboards because it is straight and relatively quiet. Other keyboards with fairly good spacebars include my CM QFS, perhaps because of the extra firmness provided by the Cherry mx green switches, and my Tex Beetle, probably because of the stability conferred by its shorter length.

Muirium wrote:Bluetooth is the only one I'm looking out for on the next HHKB. I'd love programmability but frankly don't see it happening. Dedicated arrow keys? Well, that one exists already. Chock full of other compromises too.

The best thing about the HHKB is its uncompromising 60%. No nonsense like arrow keys or extra islands, just bare bones brilliance, and an awesome set of white dyesubbed PBTs (so long as you get the right one, Ne0phyte) that put even IBM's to shame. It's an awesome looking and feeling board. If only I had the coin and the Pro 2 wasn't looking so long in the tooth…

I would gladly settle for an RF Topre version of the Poker II, with classy white/light gray dye-sub PBT keycaps. Pure 60% form factor and completely standard layout. Uniform 55-gram preferred. Perhaps a Bluetooth option. Programmable or DIP-switchable location of the arrow and other navigation keys. And no "Windows" key! (Something like the "Diamond"/Command key on the HHKB Pro 2 instead).

The HHKB Pro 2 does not look long in the tooth to me; it is just that I know it has been around a long time and it therefore seems overdue for a new model, although many people wouldn't want to change a thing about it.

matt3o wrote:if you like reds, keep the 45g, no reason to switch to a stiffer topres.

I find topre 45g even lighter than mx reds, at least that is the feeling being the activation point so near to the roof.

I like strong clicky switches, and topre 55gr is the only way to go for me.

Listen to him!

I also had MX Red (Wich I think are the best mx switches) and now I use my HHKB for all purposes, Typing, Programming, Gaming (FPS, MOBA)... HHKB is just overall superior, material, caps, typing feel. It has it's weaknesses but once you aclimate to it there is no reason to go for 55g or to constanty switch between boards. 60% Boards for gaming all the way, no more bumping against the housing with the mouse (I am a low sensitivity player)

Rather than continuing with endless speculation, I bought the HHKB Pro 2. I am now typing on this masterpiece of minimalism and thoroughly enjoying it. Mine has the black case, and I've replaced the black on black keycaps with the white and light gray set. For those interested in more detailed impressions, I have posted a review:

http://deskthority.net/news-reviews-f4/ ... t6553.html

As I mentioned in the review, one of the few things I might change about the HHKB Pro 2 is the switch weight -- it would be good if they were to offer a 55-gram option. Nevertheless, the 45-gram switches are working well for me, and I have adjusted rapidly to all the things that I had feared would cause me problems, such as the placement of the backspace and control keys and the absence of dedicated arrow keys.

In fact, after using the HHKB Pro 2 for the past few days in my home office, I found that typing on my IBM SSK at work seemed completely foreign. I had tried the HHKB Pro 2 to satisfy my curiosity, thinking I would soon return to my trusty IBMs. Never did I imagine that I would adopt the HHKB Pro 2 as my primary keyboard, but this is what is happening.