deskthority

Hi everyone.

I've been reading on deskthority for quite long now (last September, if I remember correctly), but I never posted anything relevant and now I feel it's time for introducing myself and sharing my experience with keyboards so far.

My name is Rob (Roberto actually), I'm a computer science student from Italy.
Last summer I decided that I couldn't go on typing with laptop keyboards anymore and that I wanted to buy a "serious" one. I heard that clicky mechanical was THE way, because of tactile feedback etc, so I bought a beautiful Das Keyboard with Cherry MX blues. I immediately hated the switches. First of all 60g of force is apparently too much for my taste and second I was shocked to find out that the *click* happened after 2 of 4 millimeters. That's a lot. It's like the first half of the button is completely useless
So I sold it and went back collecting information on the forums. On geekhack I learned about the ergodox and I decided that it was the perfect keyboard. Split design, symmetric, stacked keys, and fully programmable. I had great plans for it. I wanted to write my own firmware with teensyduino and optimize the layout for my programming needs etc. BUT... I immediately hated the switches (MX reds this time). Linear MXs are so boring. It's like the spring is just sitting there doing nothing and it just gently pushes my fingers away when I type. So awkward. Now I have an ergodox to sell.
Then I remembered that my most fun/enjoyable typing experience was with some old (jellowish) rubber dome keyboard in university labs. I went back doing research and apparently the best rubber domes are those in topre switches. So I just ordered this baby on ebay, I will soon be the proud owner of an HHKB Pro2*: Maybe I will buy a real one in the future, but not before actually trying it, I'm not making the same mistake three times in a row :/
I would also be interested in trying buckling springs, but as I said earlier, I like low force switches, maybe a model F would be better than a model M for me, and a model F that can be plugged into a real computer is hard to find.

Now you get to comment about how stupid I was wasting all this money and time, have fun

If you don't like MX, you could try out Alps. Blue Alps are my favourite modern-ish* switches. They're light, very tactile and clicky, and feel great. Tactile and clicky MX do nothing for me, so maybe you'd like them too. I use linear MX because they're the best compromise to put my pretty keycaps on.

Topre are good too, but massively overhyped. And I say that as an owner of a HHKB Pro 1! It's my "daily driver" right now, but mostly for the layout and form-factor. The switches are fine, but don't expect miracles.

(By modern, I suppose I mean "manufactured in the last 20 years"...)

scottc wrote: If you don't like MX, you could try out Alps. Blue Alps are my favourite modern-ish* switches. They're light, very tactile and clicky, and feel great. Tactile and clicky MX do nothing for me, so maybe you'd like them too. I use linear MX because they're the best compromise to put my pretty keycaps on.

Topre are good too, but massively overhyped. And I say that as an owner of a HHKB Pro 1! It's my "daily driver" right now, but mostly for the layout and form-factor. The switches are fine, but don't expect miracles.

(By modern, I suppose I mean "manufactured in the last 20 years"...)

Cool, I shall also try blue alps then
It's a shame that all those cool keycaps and form-factors exist almost only for Cherry MXs.

robpaulson wrote:

scottc wrote: If you don't like MX, you could try out Alps. Blue Alps are my favourite modern-ish* switches. They're light, very tactile and clicky, and feel great. Tactile and clicky MX do nothing for me, so maybe you'd like them too. I use linear MX because they're the best compromise to put my pretty keycaps on.

Topre are good too, but massively overhyped. And I say that as an owner of a HHKB Pro 1! It's my "daily driver" right now, but mostly for the layout and form-factor. The switches are fine, but don't expect miracles.

(By modern, I suppose I mean "manufactured in the last 20 years"...)

Cool, I shall also try blue alps then
It's a shame that all those cool keycaps and form-factors exist almost only for Cherry MXs.

It depends what you mean by "light" tbh. If you mean it as the opposite of "stiff", as in pertaining to how much force is needed to actuate the switch, Alps are actually fairly stiff, at least compared to most MX switches. Alps are wonderful, but if you push the switches only very lightly, they might be too heavy for you.

Chyros wrote: It depends what you mean by "light" tbh. If you mean it as the opposite of "stiff", as in pertaining to how much force is needed to actuate the switch, Alps are actually fairly stiff, at least compared to most MX switches. Alps are wonderful, but if you push the switches only very lightly, they might be too heavy for you.

You might be right. I read that some topres require 45g, buckling springs 60g and alps 70g. Do these numbers reflect well the sensation of "stiffness"? Or maybe (for example) alps feel lighter than buckling springs, despite the numbers?

Oh boy.

There's a lot of hokey folk wisdom out there about what things feel like what else. I wish there wasn't! People are full of good intentioned horseshit. There is no such thing as a regular rubber dome over membrane keyboard that feels like a Topre. It can't: you have to bottom it out to register a keypress, while the whole point of Topre is the high mid-stroke activation point it gets by capsense. The same is true of comparisons between other wildly different mechanisms. How does Alps compare to buckling spring? Well, how do cashew nuts compare to almonds? It's just as complex, and pointless to put in words when a taste will tell.

I see you're on 002's Realforce touring list. Good move! I think you'd prefer them. I have a 45g HHKB (Type-S) and a 55g Realforce, and I really do enjoy those keyboards a lot. Just recently I tried a 35g Realforce (at HaaTa's place) and despite my experience with 45 vs 55g and even the 35g domes on 002's ergo (variable) weighted Realforce, I was positively surprised! 35g Topre sounds the closest switch to what you want. But here's the thing: I didn't know I wanted such a thing until I tried it. Everything does come down to getting your fingers on it after all.

scottc wrote: Blue Alps are my favourite modern-ish* switches. (By modern, I suppose I mean "manufactured in the last 20 years"...)

To be pedantic, they were last manufactured a bit over 25 years ago as far as I know.

jacobolus wrote:

scottc wrote: Blue Alps are my favourite modern-ish* switches. (By modern, I suppose I mean "manufactured in the last 20 years"...)

To be pedantic, they were last manufactured a bit over 25 years ago as far as I know.

Fair enough! Thanks for the clarification. I should have written "20-ish".

scottc wrote:

jacobolus wrote:

scottc wrote: Blue Alps are my favourite modern-ish* switches. (By modern, I suppose I mean "manufactured in the last 20 years"...)

To be pedantic, they were last manufactured a bit over 25 years ago as far as I know.

Fair enough! Thanks for the clarification. I should have written "20-ish".

Don't worry, we're all still thinking the nineties were 10 years ago!

Buckling Springs is heavier than MX Blues have that in mind. They are more tiresome to type on in the long run. I really don't like Buckling Springs that much because of the force needed. I really prefer MX Blues instead of Buckling Spring because of that even though the Buckling Spring has a much nicer feel to it. They are just too heavy for me.

But do yourself the right thing and just buy a Topre or CM Novatouch keyboard right away as you seem to prefer that kind of switch. They are awesome. Fells like a rubberdome only a Rolcy Royce version. Kind of reminds me of the keys on a piano.

Muirium wrote: Oh boy.
There's a lot of hokey folk wisdom out there about what things feel like what else. I wish there wasn't! People are full of good intentioned horseshit. There is no such thing as a regular rubber dome over membrane keyboard that feels like a Topre. It can't: you have to bottom it out to register a keypress, while the whole point of Topre is the high mid-stroke activation point it gets by capsense. The same is true of comparisons between other wildly different mechanisms. How does Alps compare to buckling spring? Well, how do cashew nuts compare to almonds? It's just as complex, and pointless to put in words when a taste will tell.

You certainly have a point. But some switches are not so easily available to try and discussing in the forums about forces and trying to put the feelings into words is part of the fun

Muirium wrote: I see you're on 002's Realforce touring list. Good move! I think you'd prefer them. I have a 45g HHKB (Type-S) and a 55g Realforce, and I really do enjoy those keyboards a lot. Just recently I tried a 35g Realforce (at HaaTa's place) and despite my experience with 45 vs 55g and even the 35g domes on 002's ergo (variable) weighted Realforce, I was positively surprised! 35g Topre sounds the closest switch to what you want. But here's the thing: I didn't know I wanted such a thing until I tried it. Everything does come down to getting your fingers on it after all.

deeyay wrote: But do yourself the right thing and just buy a Topre or CM Novatouch keyboard right away as you seem to prefer that kind of switch. They are awesome. Fells like a rubberdome only a Rolcy Royce version. Kind of reminds me of the keys on a piano.

I'm really looking forward to try topres with the Realforce Euro tour

If someone is used to scissor switch notebook keyboards, I think any and all "regular" keyboards will have immense key travel before activation, compared to that.

Lol posted in the wrong thread, sorry XD