deskthority

Where in your opinion does a Model M or F stand, in terms of smoothness compared to other switches? When I press down a button without letting it buckle, sometimes I can feel a small friction between the key slider and the barrel, and sometimes there's even less.

The big contenders being vintage blacks and hall effects of course, but I have neither of those to compare with.

Do you know if the barrels of that keyboard you are mentioning are clean? Is it a Model M or F? The only thing of relevance I can add is that my IBM 3104 Display Terminal Model F keyboard does feel "smoother" after cleaning it. How much more is relative and impossible to say precisely.

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/ibm ... hilit=3104

Hmm… you've just set me off slowly pressing keys on a bunch of keyboards on my shelves!

The results? Well, Model F and Model M buckling spring are moderately smooth in their pre-travel (isn't that the technical term for this?) on my clean but potentially dusty boards. I expected Model M wouldn't be as good as F, but they're quite close and it depends on the exact board and even the precise key just as much! My Model M2 is definitely less smooth though. And then I tried some MX boards: blech.

Got to hand it to the Topres though. Even my NovaTouch is in another league compared to the IBMs, in this one narrow respect. The Realforce and HHKB are of course slick too. I've got a Hall effect board and a lonely Nixdorf MX black. I'd say they're all closely clustered around Topre for smoothness. So much better than regular MX!

More important to me is the feeling at (and immediately after) actuation. The IBMs vary a bit in how sharp they are at that point (this is Model F's major superiority over Model M), and it's where MX suffers so badly in its tactile and clicky forms.

Topre feels quite different at actuation again. But in this case I have to hand it to IBM. The crisp actuation point (and glorious noise) is what makes buckling spring truly sing.

Of course, now I have to mention Beamspring! IBM's original switch is the best of both. Sharp and satisfying, yet also swinging and smooth. It's magnificent, if you can get hold of them and can handle vintage gear like that.

Seebart - I think my 122 F is fairly free of dust. I can't see any on its barrels, maybe a bit of cotton swabs and/or lube could improve it.

Thanks a lot µrium! That's some dedication. Yes the pre-buckle and post-buckle smoothness is entirely different in my observation as well. It's most likely due to the fact that the buckled spring makes contact with the barrel.
So you're saying in short:

- F is better at actuation, (actually this might not be smoothness-related )
- Topre/vBlack/HEffect are better in keytravel,
- while Beam has the best of both worlds and actually trumps both?

That's some insight right there. I can agree with it (now that I went to press slowly on my beam after reading your post ), I don't know how thought-provoking it could be for others, though

To be fair, I keep my keyboards out on shelves so the experiment took about a minute!

Also: my Nixdorf black is the prized clear top kind. No ordinary vintage black. (I've argued before whether those really exist. Only the Nixdorfs feel obviously different in my inconclusive experience.) It's just a loose switch, which isn't as good a datapoint as a keyboard either. Someone around here might have input about all that!

I was surprised at the difference between Topre and every buckling spring I have here. When I'm typing, they both feel smooth. But when pressing very slowly, they're quite different. Topre wins.

Of course, just pressing an MX red suddenly bursts the bubble this is a vital difference. Buckling spring is still a world apart from that scratch!

Now that I think about it, the glorious F ping is still better than the thunk of Beam. (Again, not smoothness-related)

I don't get that ping on every button though, the number row on my F122 seems to be the best area for that, even better than the F50 or the NIB XT I have.

Maybe it's just me, or possibly due to the mounting plate having the most curve there?

dzhoou wrote:Now that I think about it, the glorious F ping is still better than the thunk of Beam. (Again, not smoothness-related)

Hmm quite a bold statement, but I believe you. I wish you could try my Micro Switch linears. Of what I own the smoothest. Those mechanical RAFI switches I have are pretty nice too.

We need a keyboard expo in Europe. The Americans were surprised I'd never been to such a thing before when we met up in San Francisco. Despite being on holiday at the time, I still brought my HHKB along from home, and an Ergo Pro and beamspring up from San Diego. It was a great get together. Hall effects were on show, including a Space Cadet Keyboard! Oh… yeah, I still need to post the pictures.

As for the Model F ping: you can love it or loathe it, that ping ain't going anywhere! I find it's pretty consistent on my boards. (XT, AT and Kishsaver.) My Model Ms are the ones that are less consistent in sound and feel. Some need bolt mods I suppose, but the M122 I did that on was a nightmare and still ain't great.

Beamspring sounds just as awesome though. Before you as much as switch on the machine gun solenoid. Different to Model F, sure, but rich and vintage.

A keyboard expo sounds in Europe sounds interesting.

Or failing that, is it possible to put rare boards on tour? Although I imagine owners would be reluctant to let their prized boards out of their sight. Perhaps that could be mitigated by having tour participants deposit money in escrow. This could be given to the owner if the board is damaged or lost, or returned to the tour participant if everything proceeds smoothly.

Touring is a young board's game. Shipping is inherently risky, especially for heavy boards. Getting cash back if everything goes tits up isn't much of a reward. The hard to find stuff isn't just expensive (like a Topre) but also, well, hard to find. Owners generally spent a lot of time finding them.

I thought touring would be a long shot but I had to ask.

Do you think owners would be more receptive to bringing their boards to an expo?

Sure. If travelling there (and staying in town) is reasonable. Which is the hard part!

I was lucky in San Francisco. I had a willing driver and a place to stay. Europe's not so easy.

Well, Europe is a continent, whereas the US obviously is a country.

I'd definitely do a UK one, even though public transport is extortionate here. For a European one, it wouldn't be easy :/ .

If I did go to one, for sure I'd bring some of my boards along .

When driving around America, the fact that the US is a continent becomes clear once you check your map after a few hours solid at 85 mph on the freeway and see how little you have moved! Europe feels like a large single country these days too, with the ease of move,ent we have compared to the past. No need for multiple visas. But lots of need for a fat wallet for the fuel or plane tickets.

Muirium wrote: No need for multiple visas. But lots of need for a fat wallet for the fuel or plane tickets.

Well that's what I mean mostly. Transport in the US is dirt cheap (3400 km of driving cost us almost nothing when we went there) while in Europe it's several times that cost. Also takes much longer since they haven't invented traffic jams in the US yet ;p .

Ha! Alas, they have, but you're right they aren't as unavoidable as they are here. We were stuck for an hour trying to get over the Bay Bridge: only place ever where the car pool lane is 3 PERSONS OR MORE, bastards! And, naturally, things got a little sticky when I had a plane to catch home. But other than that the Californian road network alone is so much better than our miserly thin motorways full of stationary commuters that it's a joy to behold.

Anyway, Europe's all about flying. (Much easier to get to from here in Scotland without a change of planes in London first.) if only we could all agree on something irresistible so the whole lot shows up at once. Keyboard singularity!

Anyone here own a hotel by any chance? That'd be convenient…

I find any roughness on buckling springs ( both the model F and M ) is the sliders. The cheap nasty unicomp ones are not made of the same stuff as the older model f ones . If you want to put unicomp caps on a model F or M i highly recommend you use the original sliders and just use the unicomp top part. And if your IBM has 1 part caps well ... you should not be swapping them for unicomps ! Or you should give them to me !

I also find that slides ( and to some extent the barrels ) are like a fine wine , they get better with age ( use).