deskthority

hi

Can anyone suggest a use case for the navigation keys on the num pad?

ie. are they actually still necessary?

thanks, Ian

You mean if anyone still uses navigation on numpad? I do. Scroll lock.

I used it when I was using my Hi-Tek 725, which has an XT layout. As there wasn't a nav cluster yet in those days, using num and scroll lock to navigate with the numpad was normal. Of course, with the introduction of the nav cluster both num and scroll lock became virtually useless and in fact most people won't know what they're even for.

Yup.

So, uh, Seebart: do you actually *use* that layer with Scroll Lock? I understand it's a thing some Excel users like to do, but other than that it's essentially derelict.

Oddly enough, I do use the integrated Numpad on my SSK for this stuff sometimes… in OS X! Hit Option five times, and you turn on mouse keys, which can be useful when you misplace the mouse. Then those keys become an 8-way direction pad for the mouse cursor, with 0 and . acting as the buttons. Handy, occasionally. Especially when I've a sleeping cat on my lap and can't reach the trackpad!

Yes I do use it on some keyboards. But some of those are XT layout so that does not count. The truth is that on my Zenith Z-KB2 there is a problem with the dedicated left arrow so I have to use the scoll lock numpad layer on that keyboard. And I've gotten to like it somewhat.

I recently became aware of the scroll lock use in Excel, but that seems to be only use case for it nowadays.

I think the 4-arrows and mouse have essentially replaced the need for nav on the numpad, except when you don't have a mouse or your arrow keys are broken, as pointed out.

I'm designing a keyboard and realised that they are essentially redundant, so have removed them... also don't need a NumLock key and LED either then...

Thanks for the inputs...

cheers, Ian

Here's a couple more ideas about modes / layers:

The best way to trigger Caps Lock isn't with a dedicated key, but with a macro: press both Shift keys to toggle it on and off. This works wonders for me. I prefer a Control key left of A instead of a dangerous bugger like cAPS lOCK.

Num Lock as a legacy navigation mode isn't very useful. But it does make more sense when you ditch a numpad entirely and go for an integrated one instead: like on the tenkeyless IBM Model M SSK and the Topre Realforce 87U. The classic place for that numpad is centred around the I key, so 789 matches up with the usual number keys. Better to do it entirely within the keyboard's controller, like on the SSK, so the host computer simply sees numpad 4 instead of the U key, instead of relying on Num Lock like Topre does. My vintage SSK works better on the Mac than the modern Realforce! Num Lock doesn't exist as a concept on the Mac. But the keyboard can handle that itself. Including even an LED to warn the user when numpad mode is engaged.

Muirium wrote: The best way to trigger Caps Lock isn't with a dedicated key, but with a macro: press both Shift keys to toggle it on and off. This works wonders for me. I prefer a Control key left of A instead of a dangerous bugger like cAPS lOCK.

Yup, I borrowed that idea from discussions here. My left edge has, from the bottom, Ctrl, Shift, Tab, Delete/Backspace.

Muirium wrote: Num Lock as a legacy navigation mode isn't very useful. But it does make more sense when you ditch a numpad entirely and go for an integrated one instead: like on the tenkeyless IBM Model M SSK and the Topre Realforce 87U.

For my purposese I'm keeping a numpad but it's shifted to between the two ergo-style halves, Ala Maltron but not as wide.

Thanks, Ian

If you are going to have a dedicated arrow cluster i don't see the need for arrow keys on a num-pad.

A layout without the nav closer would be better imo, so you have all the navigation on the numbed like you did in the AT/XT days and you move print screen Scroll Lock and Pause to a function layer on the F row , delete can be a function layer of backspace and there you go , good compromise between TKL and full sized for people who need num pads.

I always did wonder why it was the num pad they got rid of when they first made TKL , looks like it was the wrong call to me.