deskthority

Curiosity got the better of me, as it does; but £200+ of curiosity for a keyboard whose attributes I don't otherwise like (font, layout, colours etc) meant I actually went for the set of Topre testers that an Ebay chap is selling.

Obviously it's slightly mixed in terms of getting an accurate assessment of how things would be. I mean they are the correct switches and there's somebody out there who's providing them to people like me who are curious. But a switch is only a third of the story, give or take: you also have the keyboard mounting, especially the backplate or whatevs, and you have the keycaps.

So the switches themselves, with the presumably also Topre caps on them: he makes it clear it's a random selection. And like anything that isn't a Model F/M the angle of the caps varies depending on which row they belong to. Hard to say if that makes much difference and they're easy enough to remove should I want to do so. I hasten to add I don't want to do so, as now and forever more, my designations of the 35g, 45g and 55g respectively are X, 2 and D as they're the keys they are. And there's apparently no other way of discerning them that I can tell: the 35 and 45 have an L on the top of the housing, normally obscured by the cap, and the 55 has a P. Which isn't that helpful. I guess I could do the same thing with the switches that I do with my backup drives and paint them with different coloured nail polish so I can tell at a glance which is which. Er anyway.

Back to what I'd attempted to talk about: the switches themselves. Quick version is that I like the 55g version the most, and by far. It's the one that exhibits the most obvious tactile response and just feels "right" to me. Because I like heavy keys and tend to suffer from twitch-based "negligent discharge" (oo-er missus, though the official Army term for someone with an itchy trigger finger) with the lighter ones. I can feel the most obvious force-bump with that one: the others seem to be virtually (but not quite) linear in comparison.

Other considerations: the audible feedback is important to me. I actually like the loud clackity noise of the Model F/M and even grew to love the randomly-tuned springs joining in with it. I quickly came to love the cute Matias Mini not just because it's cute but even though it's too polite to make too much noise the keys still have a certain degree of "clack" to them. While they're damped, they don't feel or sound mushy.

So what's my opinion of the Topre switches' sound? They remind me a lot of the Hi-Tek and Futaba switches that were popular in the late '70s and early '80s. In particular it's because they "clack" on the way up and not down, much like a BBC or Electron or Dragon etc. Or probably most non-IBM keyboards of the day, I guess. Though it's not so much a "clack" as a "plip". I'm not sure if that's because the key-caps are actually a little disappointing, in that they seem to be not-very-thick lightweight plastic with obvious moulding artefacts on the top (which actually look surprisingly cheaply finished: I think these are the genuine article, but it's not like the Lego bricks of my youth where there was at least some attempt at finishing) which would obviously detract from the "authority" of the sound; but it may simply be that while the Ebay chap took care to carefully glue them to a sturdy clear acrylic base, not actually being mounted in a full keyboard enclosure is going to rob them of much of their voice and their feel.

So what else have I learnt? Probably way too little, to be honest. As with the Cherry MX testers, they give you a glance of what they're like but very little clue as to what they're like to live with. I guess my lasting opinion of them is an observation that's been done before, probably many times: I've certainly done so, and have seen others say the same, which is pretty much "rubber domes done right". In a perfect world, all rubber dome keyboards would feel like that. And it would be down to the overall construction as to what personality it has overall.

And I guess that marks the end of my experience with the testers: they gave me a glimpse of what Topre switches are about but not much idea of how I would get on with them in practice. I think my main worry is that they've redoubled my concerns about the key caps, which I think are not to my taste.

Away from keyboard so must be uncharacteristically brief.

You’ve been sorely misled. On every count.

That's, erm, quite comprehensive...

I'm sure he'll come up with a more meaty reply, he did say he's "away from keyboard"

But I agree, using a single "switch" to imagine how the whole keyboard feels like is very tricky. Also, it's quite complicated to describe, for me, why I like my Topre keyboards so much: there are moments, for example, after I type and type and type, when I suddenly realize how nice it is to press a key, then the feeling again subsides and I go on with my work: it's like a buildup of good, totally non-problematic, non-fatigue-inducing typing, and the mellow (or not so mellow, depending on the keyboard) feeling of the switch, that briefly comes up to announce itself as "keyboard satisfaction", then hides again and lets me do my work. May sound strange, maybe, but it's hard to describe. Also the dome "collapsing" sensation is great, and every time I use an MX switch I feel the spring pushing my fingers in an unexpected and unpleasant way. To put it shortly, one has to type on a Topre for some days, I don't know, a week, to give it a chance to "become one with the rubber goodness" , and only then ask himself/herself if it's worthy or not. For me, it's a total yes.

Oh, I agree: I tried some Cherry MX testers before getting an MX Blue keyboard and while the overall experience was very much... well, just more, they did give me a hint as to what I might expect. I'm guessing the Topre testers are similar: a hint, but not the final story by any means. I mean it is a bit like giving somebody a single ingredient and expecting them to taste the finished dish. Obviously it won't, but it might give an idea of what to expect. The thing they did tell is is that, as I suspect will be the case, I'll be a lot happier with the 55g version. What they won't tell me is how it'll feel and sound in practice.

Laser wrote: I'm sure he'll come up with a more meaty reply, he did say he's "away from keyboard"

Keep the faith!

Back at the Realforce now, let me elaborate just a bit…

Now, I'm an IBM and Topre man. I like them both, but differently. As different they are indeed. They share a few things in common, mind, that really speak to me.

A small but vital one of those, to me, is the dyesub Helvetica legends on their PBT caps! It's the same font. Topre goofs up the modifiers a bit (Backspace is a single word, btw.) but they make up for that with their better kerning, and besides they lay on the legends' dye good and thick. These caps here are near the top of my list of the best ever made, and categorically the best still in manufacture. I really do like their cylindrical profile, deeper cupped than most anyone, especially the shallow curves on buckling spring. I find these, along with NMB space invaders and Cherry dyesubs, to be the most comfortable of all for extended typing. PBT is so much more to my feel than ABS, the shiny stuff that doubleshots and most everything else is made of. Topre's PBT caps are thicker and thockier than IBM's, indeed they're a good part of the whole Topre experience.

The next similarity is sturdy construction. This Realforce here is no throwaway peripheral. I actually like my HHKB better, but the Realforce is the definitive Topre feel. A good, thick, unyielding metal plate lies behind these 55g domes. It helps give the keyboard its heft—reassuringly heavy—and its strength: it flexes less than an SSK, let alone most any board from China. Beyond those, it gives these keys a well and truly anchored feel. Something like a nice metal cased MX board, but with the Topre domes present and correct. It's thoroughly addictive.

What Realforces and Model Fs and Ms ultimately share is quality. They're all high cost, highly engineered, high end keyboards. Flagships. They're sturdy and steadfast, confident and cocksure. They know what they are and they're proud of it. No trying to be someone else's non-union Mexican equivalent. No sheep's clothing. They're true to themselves.

What bothered me when I read your report was the thought of a bad experience with a bad "tester" misleading you. Sounds like the one you've found is some homemade doohickey. (Topre has made a few of their own over the years, as keyrings! But no equivalent that I know of to all those MX samplers out there.) Funny thing is that my very first encounter with Topre was with a homemade tester, too. One by DT's very own MrInterface. Just like the fella (bottom centre) in this set:



Note the buckling spring sampler on the left. That was also my first time with Model M! I was much more impressed with Topre in tester form. Mr. Interface did a sterling job encapsulating the switch, and put a decent cap on it… warning me off Topre's silly black on black dyesubs forever. The buckling spring tester, however, paled in comparison to my Model F XT, my one and only mechanical board at the time. Yes, part of it was the true compare between F and M, but another was that real Model M felt better than the tester. It was giving me a hint of cinnamon, so to use your metaphor, but wasn't able to tell me a damn thing about the bun.

Concluding this compulsive clacking session, let me lay out my fanboy cards on the table: yes, I'm a Topre nut, evidently. And I like IBM plenty, too. I know where you're coming from with the spring buckling. The sheer sense of command you get when wielding one of those, oh I get it and relish it too. I get it with my Realforce just as much as my SSK. I get it with my HHKB just as much as my Kishsaver. And that's one helluvallot! They sound different, they feel different, they are different. And yet, there's something so much alike in their spirit. Something I only ever catch in glimpses with any other boards. These have got it in spades, and they flow like nothing else.

Typical Topre: look at how much I've written already. Difficult to be succinct when you're riding one of these. Whatever you're up to just keeps on going. I didn't even get to the stuff about regular versus Type-S, and which domes. For you, I'd say this exact board here would do the trick: regular non-silenced, uniform 55g heavy assed TKL Realforce. Only, you'd want it in ISO instead (blech) and likely in black. They're far from loud, as is.

Muirium wrote: What bothered me when I read your report was the thought of a bad experience with a bad "tester" misleading you. Sounds like the one you've found is some homemade doohickey. (Topre has made a few of their own over the years, as keyrings! But no equivalent that I know of to all those MX samplers out there.) Funny thing is that my very first encounter with Topre was with a homemade tester, too. One by DT's very own MrInterface. Just like the fella (bottom centre) in this set:

Just replying to this bit for now, will hopefully get back to the rest a bit later! I think these keys are the real deal: they're the key-ring type and seem to be well-secured to the thick perspex base. I hope my write-up of my experience didn't come across as overly negative: it wasn't meant to be, just a neutral assessment of what I liked and what I didn't, and also that both were likely to be a bit off the mark as it really is hard to tell in isolation. I think really the only thing I can be at all sure about is that I definitely like heavy switches!

My opinion about the keycaps may have been coloured a little by the replacement Filco double-shots which I think really are exceptionally heavy, though I'm not sure what they're made of offhand. I think I can see what you mean about the curvature which is probably something I'd appreciate, though I'm certain I do not appreciate the black-on-black legends!

vometia wrote:

Muirium wrote: What bothered me when I read your report was the thought of a bad experience with a bad "tester" misleading you. Sounds like the one you've found is some homemade doohickey. (Topre has made a few of their own over the years, as keyrings! But no equivalent that I know of to all those MX samplers out there.) Funny thing is that my very first encounter with Topre was with a homemade tester, too. One by DT's very own MrInterface. Just like the fella (bottom centre) in this set:

Just replying to this bit for now, will hopefully get back to the rest a bit later! I think these keys are the real deal: they're the key-ring type and seem to be well-secured to the thick perspex base. I hope my write-up of my experience didn't come across as overly negative: it wasn't meant to be, just a neutral assessment of what I liked and what I didn't, and also that both were likely to be a bit off the mark as it really is hard to tell in isolation. I think really the only thing I can be at all sure about is that I definitely like heavy switches!

My opinion about the keycaps may have been coloured a little by the replacement Filco double-shots which I think really are exceptionally heavy, though I'm not sure what they're made of offhand. I think I can see what you mean about the curvature which is probably something I'd appreciate, though I'm certain I do not appreciate the black-on-black legends!

if they came from ebay they're not genuine, like mu says the only official ones are provided by Topre themselves with Realforce (and at one point in time, Type Heaven) logo keycaps. they have small screws in the bottom, so the rigidity is probably slightly better but overall i don't know that the difference would be huge. you can't get them without attending an official event with Topre or buying them from someone who did. coolermaster also used to include them in a variant of their tester with a novatouch slider, so i guess that could also be considered genuine.

The best test, short of buying several boards for the hell of it yourself, is to swing up to Edinburgh sometime and have a go on mine.

The 55g Realforce may be pretty much your ideal keyboard, I reckon. It would give you a fair impression of 55g Topre overall and what these boards look like in white. Hint: notably brighter than an SSK. Plus: I’ve got Hypersphere damping rings on the arrow keys.

The HHKB would show you what 45g and native, accross the board Type-S is like. Also: what a difference the Realforce’s metal plate makes. I like the lightweight HHKB better in practice, as the little bit of extra give on bottoming out is more my thing, but it’s definitely a matter of personal taste. Besides, I love showing off my Hasu Bluetooth mod.

I’d also pull out a NovaTouch so you can see what they’re like, with and without Hyper’s rings. I’ve got one fully decked out in those and a tasty set of OG Cherry dyesubs. It’s a beaut, but it’s no Realforce. The difference is neither subtle nor easy to describe…

And everyone wants to try a Kishsaver, right?

Muirium wrote: And everyone wants to try a Kishsaver, right?

Whew, reading this post gave me the vapours.

Keep this up and I'm going to end up with an HHKB before long.

The mention of a Kishsaver did it, eh? The funny thing about the Kishsaver vs. the HHKB is just how absurdly far apart they are in every single thing besides layout. My Kishy’s 3 kilos of solid zinc and Model F braun—a kilo heavier than my 15” laptop!—and it has the same footprint as a TKL, not a 60%. Yet when I’m typing on them, the HHKB and the Kishy do bring about a similar trance of oneness with cup rubber or mad pingy buckling springs…

Can’t beat a sixty.

i would do terrible things for your kishsaver, mu
if you ever feel some desire welling up in you to bolster your topre collection even more, or perhaps upgrade to a slightly larger F (think unsaver), do let me know

Oh, I know the Kishy’s one of my most pure unobtainium boards. Thoroughly useable too. It’s been a pleasure ever since Xwhatsit sent me his prototype Model F controller.

Got to remember that less is more with me. Unsavers make me smile—the perfect name for their strange compromise—but I don’t have any use for the extra keys. No, the mere knowledge of their unjustified existence would make me twitch, and not in a good way.

Veering back to Topre again, Chyros made a nice comparison video of the quietest switches out there, which includes both regular and Type-S Topre. He’s got Matias quiet clicks in there too, so you have a baseline:

keyboards-f2/top-10-most-silent-keyboar ... 19985.html

I’ve got to admit to finding both kinds of Topre and classic damped cream Alps the nicest sounding of the lot. He’s right about different keyboard bodies having as much effect on sound as the switches, and indeed the spacebars…