deskthority

As above really, I'm currently using blues, and I'm getting a blue board with some ghetto greens soon, and having looked into it, and seeing how easy it is to switch springs/stems on pcb mounted boards, I was thinking of having a play, and wondered what combos people have tried?

Anyone tried red springs with blue stems? Would it even work?

Edit:
Blue and reds use the same spring? I thought browns and red did, blues were a little heavier, then blacks even more so :/

I think that blue=brown=red springs.

Limmy(Keyboardmania.net) and Soarer disagree and say there is a 2-3G difference.

Crazy ass theory if you ask me but I have heard stranger on the InterToobs. FIRE the Cherry Corp Industrial Engineer if true. I think 2-3g measurement differences are within manufacturing batch tolerances.

Blacks ARE stiffer.

Clears are stiffer still but NOT 20g stiffer than blacks.

In my measurements of 6 switches (2 reds, 2 browns, 2 blues), I could consistently order the springs in a blind test. In my sample, springs could be ordered red<brown<blue in terms of forces. In an additional test, I measured actuation forces using red sliders with different springs and I get consistent measurements. Average actuation forces using the red slider and different springs were 42.5g < 45.3g < 46.9g (again, red<brown<blue springs)

The reds are from a lightly used keyboard, brown and blues are bought new from mouser and wasdkeyboards. It could be possible that my reds are a little worn out from usage.

Hi there ripster! It is KBDMania by the way.

Hmm, still am tempted to switch all the blues to red springs to see if I can feel the difference, love the sound, but I've come to really like the lightness of the reds, was hoping I might be able to make some weird combo which would be the best of both worlds

Limmy wrote:In my measurements of 6 switches (2 reds, 2 browns, 2 blues), I could consistently order the springs in a blind test. In my sample, springs could be ordered red<brown<blue in terms of forces. In an additional test, I measured actuation forces using red sliders with different springs and I get consistent measurements. Average actuation forces using the red slider and different springs were 42.5g < 45.3g < 46.9g (again, red<brown<blue springs)

The reds are from a lightly used keyboard, brown and blues are bought new from mouser and wasdkeyboards. It could be possible that my reds are a little worn out from usage.

Hi there ripster! It is KBDMania by the way.

There are so many odds that you can't be sure
- manufacturing tolerance
- measurment errors (heisenberg )
- low number of springs tested,

So for your measurment from 42.5 to 46.9, we must be within the confidence intervall (IC 95%), meaning that these are the same.

Sorry for my bad english as i hardly speak mathematical english... But i hope you get the point.
Statistics are so unintuitive but so real.

Back on topic

I tested red and ghetto red, and i like ghetto red better (so kind of mind artefact),
blues within blach spring is funny, but my girly hands and fingers get tired,
ergo clears are nice but very tactile, some people love them a lot.
i tested clear springs and black stem (mickael jackson's mod ? ) and they are nice too ...

My favorite is definitely ghetto red/red (scientifically the same i know).

Hmm.. I am well aware of the odds. That is why I am cautious and that is why I stated the number of springs tested.

Small number of observations may be not enough to generalize some phenomenon, but it certainly doesn't mean that the phenomenon is NOT there for certain. That is too much of claim you are making. I may have too small power(i.e. too small sample) in my test to reject the null hypothesis that the springs have different design, but that doesn't mean they are the same. In order to properly test the hypothesis, you would have to show that the null cannot be rejected using a powerful test.

Moreover, your claim that the difference MUST be within the confidence interval is groundless, because you don't have (at least you didn't mention) any measurements of such high variance. In my measurements, there was only small variance in the springs. All my measurements from same type of spring are within 1g range.

Limmy wrote:Hmm.. I am well aware of the odds and I am pretty sure I know more statistics than you do.

Worst sin detected : Pride

Well it won't turn in a 'mine is bigger than yours' war. It will be useless. I only torture epidemiological studies every day, and they cry a lot

Limmy wrote: All my measurements from same type of spring are within 1g range.

On TWO springs of each type

Ok you may be right, even if based upon the things you wrote i don't think so. But i don't know enough english to argue. And statistical disputes can be more boring than on the sex of angels. So let's stop. It'll be boring for most.

As i said i feel a difference beetween ghetto red and red, and i say they must be the same. But these are on different keyboards.
regards
Gil Gam

HuHu
you edited your post

Gilgam wrote:HuHu
you edited your post

I did before you posted something about pride... ha....

Here are my measurements. Believe it or not, it would be on you.

Measured actuation force of a Cherry MX red switch:
using a red spring - 42.32g / 42.85g
using a brown spring - 45.45g / 45.24g
using a blue spring - 46.54g / 47.33g

Measured force required to bottom out:
using a red spring - 52.72g / 53.19g
using a brown spring - 55.72g / 55.58g
using a blue spring - 57.28g / 58.09g

If you believe something and not test it, how accurate is your belief? I at least took the initiative and tested it.

Gilgam wrote: As i said i feel a difference beetween ghetto red and red, and i say they must be the same. But these are on different keyboards.

How would different keyboard affect force of springs? The only difference I could think of is key caps. And key cap differences are at most 0.5g. You feel the difference and say they must be the same? I don't really understand.

Many felt the ghetto reds were slightly stiffer than the reds, but never the other way around. I think it is consistent with what I find and your manufacturing tolerance and measurement story doesn't really explain them. (if it were indeed huge manufacturing tolerance on the springs, then we should have seen cases where ghetto reds are lighter than reds. See comments here http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/the ... -t780.html search for ghetto red.)

Oh, I forgot to mention that the numbers above is median value from multiple measurements on one spring. I reported median value in hope of reducing measurement error, average of the measurement would have been nicer but I was lazy. Most median values reported above are two same measurements out of three tries.

GeorgeStorm wrote:Hmm, still am tempted to switch all the blues to red springs to see if I can feel the difference, love the sound, but I've come to really like the lightness of the reds, was hoping I might be able to make some weird combo which would be the best of both worlds

Good idea!

FOR SCIENCE!

Now, who wants to talk about Korean springs?

I don't think I ever claimed that red/brown/blue springs have a different activation force!

They might, but that single measurement would of course vary a fair bit due to manufacturing tolerances.

The 'strength' of a spring isn't about activation force - it's about how the force changes with compression. Two springs of different strength could result in the same activation point. It's the slope of the graph.

Comparing Cherry's force graphs for each switch, they have a different slope after the activation point. I believe this part of the graph is most representative of the raw spring strength.

I only measured a couple of springs of each type, but it appears to replicate what limmy found about brown vs blue (I don't have any reds). I agree more meaurements would be needed to make any firm conclusion.

It's pretty obvious that Cherry have some method for specifying a spring, that results in different springs for the black/clear/green group. In order of increasing strength we have: green < black < clear. However, if each was fitted to a black stem, the difference in activation force would be pretty small - the differences become larger towards the top and bottom of the travel.

I suspect they have applied the same method for red/brown/blue springs, it's just that the difference is less noticable. But, we would expect that ordering them by strength would give us: blue < red < brown, if the same method was used as for green/black/clear (In other words: clicky < linear < tactile), and that's not what the measurements suggest.

Whatever, it's still worthy of further investigation.

Are there any places which sell just the stems/springs from different switches?

Wouldn't mind trying some clears etc
Might find my perfect switch by playing about with different combos

Don't know of any.

Soarer - source of graph?

The greys may be a tad different. The others? Not seeing it.

http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=32427

Lol - didn't expect THAT!

Unfortunately I'm on my iPad. Will post pics later.

Edit - Looks PRETTY similar to ME folks.... At least Brown/Blue/Red.

Brown, Blue, Black, Clear Brown vs. Red

My own measurements. You must be blind if you can't see the differences between black/green/clear!

I wouldn't say anything about the greys - could just be manufacturing tolerances. They appear to have similar slopes.

I meant more Limmy's Blue Red Brown theory - I don't have a Green spring to stick under a Microscope.

What was your testing setup?

And I'm not Stevie Wonder so stop the blind jokes. 2-3g is pretty insignificant. Most people can't feel a 5g difference.

And isn't Hooke's law BEAUTIFUL! A spring is a spring and "smooth" is classic McRip Effect.

You need to measure, not just look!
Look Ma - no nickels!

Here are more ideas on spring measuring equipment.
Source: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/577459 by Scarface 2008
Source: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/533305 by Ddogakddogak 2006

Wow. And I thought supergluing nickels was hardcore.

Has anyone asked Cherry Corp? They probably wouldn't tell us.

Anyhoo, from a PRACTICAL viewpoint I still think it's Red=Blue=Brown. I'll shut up about Green since I don't have one in front of me.

This is FUN! I haven't been able to have a good technical argument at Geekhack in a looong while!

Wow this thread has gone slightly differently to how I imagined it

If anyone does know of places to buy stems/springs, please let me know, I want a full set of them all so I can play around with my Poker

I cannot think of a vendor that would sell the stems and springs separately. However, you could buy individual switches from from wasdkeyboards, mouser, and digikey, all of which are US vendors.

wasdkeyboards carry black, blue, brown, and red.
mouser and digikey carry black, clear, and blue.

You could post at classified to see if anyone is willing to sell those parts. It seems reds and browns are not generally available on those electronic parts vendors.

http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-search ... herry%20mx
http://uk.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx ... =cherry+mx

So, I could buy the switches from either of those links, and since all of the housings are the same, I could just pop open the switches on a Poker, and swap the spring and stem from one of the switches I've bought and it would all work nice and easy?

yup, exactly. The housing is all the same. But note that mouser doesn't have browns and some other rather uncommon switches.

ripster wrote:Anyhoo, from a PRACTICAL viewpoint I still think it's Red=Blue=Brown.

It's possible that the difference might just be noticable at the top/bottom of the travel, but otherwise I'm inclined to agree.

However, that is irrelevant!

The point is: are there slight differences because of how Cherry specified them? I suspect so.

And to the OP... sorry about the level of detail! The short answer is that any and all combinations are worth trying, but some more so than others

Haha it's not a problem, just wasn't expecting it

Will be an interested test even if by the end of trying all these combos etc I realise I should have just stuck with blues or whatever

And what is definitely worth trying is the ErgoClear combination. Stems of Clears combined with the Springs of the Browns/Blues/Reds. This is in my opinion the most comfortable Cherry Switch variant.

I just wanted to chat with Limmy.

Our last one April 1 ended badly.

At least I know that Soarer's Clear Spring numbers agree with my ever so primitive Nickel testing. Damn Cherry Corp Force Graph is WRONG!

Germans aren't gonna like hearing this:

Are the stems of clears like browns but with the bump being more pronounced?

I'll work out how many I can afford to get etc and go from there