deskthority

Hello everybody,

after holding back for about 6 months, I finally wish to get my first mechanical keyboard. But I can't decide which product I should order. Problem is I am from germany, so there are only a few options for the variant of keyboard I seek:

• mandatory: Tenkeyless
• MX Browns (maybe Reds)
• optional: LED backlights

After a bit of research I stumbled upon Filco and their (Ninja) TKL which is available through keyboardco.com for aprox. 160 EUR including shipping. But the Filco is missing LED backlights and the keycaps do not offer such a high quality compared to the price,this is where Ducky comes into play.
After reading through some reviews, Ducky was often compared to Filco in product quality and the difference between the two were negligible. So there is the next competitor for beeing my first mechanical keyboard: Ducky Shine 2 TKL for aprox. 175 EUR incl. shipping. Seems like the perfect product for my needs, but there is no ISO layout with german legends available yet. And I don't want the fullsize version, which will be available in the coming weeks through getdigital either. Also Ducky announced thick ISO PBTs coming soon, also with german legends, but I don't know how much those would cost, and I dont want to be forced to pay even more money just because there is no explict german product available yet. In addition to that, thick PBT caps seem a bit unfitting for a LED keyboard, because the light would be really recognizable I presume?

I have no experience when it comes to different keyboard layouts and changing keycaps etc. So I am not sure how much trouble a nordic layout keyboard would cost me. I can fairly well type without looking at the keys, but when it comes to special characters I favor to have at least the option to check where I find them. So the third option would be a Ducky without LEDs and getting somekind of blank keycaps, but paying the same money and getting less (no LEDs) irks me.

What would the keyboard pros recommend me to do? Some thoughts on comparing product quality for the mentioned products? I am thankful for every bit of advice.

A good way to keep track of Ducky is right here. Ducky Nordic is one of Europe's importers, and seems to know as much about the overdue German layout as anyone.

As for keycap material: backlighting is a big hurdle. I'm fairly new to this stuff too, but from what I hear you're basically stuck with ABS; and no fancy double-shots either. Also: you can only replace backlit caps with other backlit caps, or (as you guessed) you cut off the lighting. PBT is a tougher plastic to manufacture, so although it feels better to the touch and is harder wearing, there's no backlight compatible keycaps available with it that I've heard of.

(Though some are experimenting. Double-shot PBT is beginning to show up, for instance. Just don't expect backlight compatible PBT any time soon.)

I was all over backlights when I first took notice of mechanical keyboards, too. But since then, the appeal of better keycaps has really grown on me. And a certain little king of keyboards called the HHKB.

Interesting post of yours. Did you find what you searched for after all?

Still to get my first mech keyboard, believe it or not. The more I read, and especially saw and heard, the less sure I was about what to get.

Initially, I wanted Cherry MX Blues for maximum click. But I didn't like the sound of shiny ABS key caps (a problem my own laptop and desktop keyboards always get with me) on something I'd ideally use for years and years. PBT means dropping the backlight, which after some thought, I expected I wouldn't entirely like anyway. I run screens on minimum brightness at night and often browse in reverse colours (black on white: one keyboard shortcut on the Mac); I'm pretty photosensitive and don't fancy a glowing lightshow on my desk, even at faintest setting. Can I really expect subtlety from guys like Ducky?

Then I started hearing about the compact keyboards, smaller than Tenkeyless. Things like Filco's Minila, the Poker, and the HHKB. It was that last one that really caught my eye. Less is definitely more for me. I'm used to function layers for quite a few things on my little Apple aluminium keyboard and the like. The idea of really diving in intrigues me.

I hadn't even considered Topre switches before, thinking they were too quiet for me. But it doesn't really look like it.

Studiosushi's videos are a great resource by the way. He does a fine job to show more in a minute than reading an hour of reviews can say. Nice diverse selection of key switches in his collection too. But there's nothing like a real hands on. So that's why I signed up for the Topre tryout. A really sweet community effort here at Deskthority.

Truth is, a good keyboard is going to cost me over £100 delivered, whether it's a little Poker or a great Realforce. The HHKB I'm most interested in of all is a cool £200 from Japan. So I'm not in a hurry. I'd rather do this right.

Lots of people are into this for the customisation. They love to pop on different key caps, mix up the colours, and get seriously into collecting. I know from experience I could do the same. Really trying to get my one board to rule them all, right at the outset. Before I go quite nutty.

Besides, my piggy bank has a whole other kind of keyboard waiting on it too. Patience!

Interesting thinks and thoughts, gonna check Studiosushi when I am at home. For me as a gamer I think 60% layout is to small. I also stumbled upon the HHKB quite often, while researching for mechanical keyboads and I am also quite interested in it. But I think such an investment can wait, as student buying a pricy mechanical keyboard is enough investment already.

My current rubberdome has already LED backlights and they come in quite handy when typing in late at night with minimum light sources. I also turn down my monitor brightness quite a lot. I began training myself without using the LED backlights and I think they are no must-have, but still if you pay the same price for a full LED backlight...why not?

For customization purpose, I am not that interested in collection keycaps or switches. But after I buy a keyboard and the original keycaps are worn off, I would definitely consider investing in more high quality keycaps, if they suit my needs (german legends, good looking etc).

PS: I am also sure that my first mechanical keyboard will not be my last, so I can deal with a not 100% perfect first keyboard.

Indeed.

For a traditional tenkeyless, Ducky and Filco are both reasonable choices. Ducky Nordic forever has new configurations of boards and replacement keycaps coming in, some of them German soon. Filco are meant to be a bit better quality, though their keycaps are not. Where's the PBT?

There are other options too. Like KBT – makers of the legendary little Poker – whose 75% KBT Race sits in between tenkeyless and compact keyboards. Free shipping to Germany (and much of Europe but not here!) yet no German layout … yet. Their ISO (European style L-shaped return key) models should happily take a new set of keycaps though. But then you might as well just do the old switcheroo to a Ducky or a Filco.

Caps pop right off with a good wire puller, like Filco include with all their keyboards. They pretty much invite you to upgrade those ABS caps as soon as you open the box! (Switches, meanwhile, are all soldered into place.) You might want to upgrade to German PBT keycaps, once you've got a good keyboard. Ducky and Filco (and everyone else who uses Cherry switches) have mostly compatible keycaps. Though it does get complicated. I'd go for a decent set of keys on the board in the first place. But I'm an irrational perfectionist, as you may have gathered.

Seems like I need to side with Filco, because of the lack of availability of Ducky Shine TKL in Europe.

One question though, a HHKB costs aroun 200 EUR includ. shipping, if I am correct. Thats only 30EUR more than the Filco TKL, any reasonable argument not to get that HHKB?

Beware: there are several different models of HHKB. The Lite version is pretty damn lite indeed: it's a membrane keyboard. Also a different layout, with arrow keys jammed in at the side. Best avoided. The Pro 2 (which has been out for several years now) is where the Topre mechanical / capacitative switches are at. Ordinary Pro 2 (the one I'm after) costs about €200 / £200 with shipping here. There's also the Pro 2 S (for silent) which Trev got and really likes, it costs even more. Rounding out the family: there's specialised Japanese layout versions too. All the good HHKBs are available in white or black, with and without legends on the keys. I'm tempted to go true ninja.

Gaming would be a reasonable argument against the HHKB. I can't say I've ever heard anyone call it a gamer's keyboard. No arrow keys (without pressing function) not that this puts me off. But I'm the lightest kind of gamer that there is.

A good thing about an HHKB is there's always lots of interest if you decide to sell it. That minimal layout is not for everyone, but it definitely has its fans.

I wonder why the Filco TKL is as expensive, though. It's around £120 here.

On getdigital.de, the only filco reseller in germany, it costs 170€ includ. shipping. When I order at keyboardco.com, the yahoo exchange rate calculator tells me I have to pay aprox. 159€ for the same product.

£114 for a TKL Filco with German caps from Keyboard Co. delivered here. £128.70 for you in Germany. That's €151 according to Wolfram Alpha, which doesn't sound bad to me. They have a good reputation. The only mystery (to me) is what import tax you might get sprung on it. Hopefully more sensible in Germany than the 20% on everything we have here.

Filco also does the Ninja for £6 more. The only difference is the key caps. Still ABS, but blank tops with the symbol printed on the small front of the keys instead. Looks better to me (that's the Filco I'd go for) and means they won't shine off. Still get shine on the blank tops though.

With the option of a PBT upgrade later on, you can't go wrong with a Filco.

The Ninja is exactly what I am wanted to order.

Thats why I said 159€.

159 vs. 228. That's Filco Ninja at Keyboard Co. versus HHKB Pro 2 at Smart Imports both inc. shipping. Hmm. Still a fair difference.

They're both great keyboards. (I'd take both if I could.) But the Filco is in German, has a full TKL layout anyone should be able to live with, and has the far more compatible key caps for future upgrades. That's the real downside to Topre: very difficult to get replacement caps. (Just look at the crazy kind of thing going on around here for Cherry MX cap sets. Not a mention of Topre.)

The Filco has my recommendation as a solid place to start. They're built like a tank. They just don't have the HHKB magic that really appeals to me.

Muirium wrote:<snip> The only mystery (to me) is what import tax you might get sprung on it. Hopefully more sensible in Germany than the 20% on everything we have here. <snip>

No import taxes for shipping within the EU, it's a single market (with the exception of a few special territories).

Kurrk wrote:

Muirium wrote:<snip> The only mystery (to me) is what import tax you might get sprung on it. Hopefully more sensible in Germany than the 20% on everything we have here. <snip>

No import taxes for shipping within the EU, it's a single market (with the exception of a few special territories).

Good to hear it!

My anime habit used to cause me all kinds of trouble with things from the US.

So I just ordered the Filco Ninja TKL with a red ESC and two blanks to replace those ugly windows caps. Thanks Muirium for all the input you gave.

You're welcome. Tell us how it works out.

Incidentally, I think the Ninja already comes with replacement Windows keys:


I wouldn't be surprised if the dome shaped ones (which look really daft on a Ninja) are a way to get Microsoft kick backs or some logo on the box. Filco expects everyone to swap on the Ninjas, that's what the puller is in there for.

Well I am not sure either if the Ninja comes with those ninja windows keycaps or those ugly ones depicted in keyboardco online shop. I researched on youtube and there also was somebody who bought a filco ninja tkl from keyboardco and had those ugly dome windows keycaps...so I rather did want to be on the safe side.

Can't believe noone mentioned the Quickfire Rapid here, In my opinion the 50 Bugs more for the Filco didn't worth it.
But the Filcos are really nice keyboards,I think you won't regret it

Somebody did via private message. But I don't think you can compare a Filco to a Quickfire in terms of build quality. The innards maybe the same, but I doubt that case is as sturdy as the Filco's is.

And I also think Filco looks better, more puristic.

I got my hands on both keyboards and can say that the Quickfire is really close to the filco and its build quality.
When it comes to build quality I wouldn't pay that extra 50 Bugs for a Filco.

The Quickfire is definately overbranded and has not so nice keycaps in terms of lettering, font, size and form.
But I usually swap stock caps with Cherry DS so for me thats not a problem.

Stock filco compared to stock Quickfire is indeed more beautiful
Anyway I hope you are happy with that beauty hehe