deskthority

Posted: **01 Sep 2013, 21:40**

Hello Hello!

Somehow, after using my HHKB Pro 2 for some months now, I began questioning myself if the 55g Realforce keyboard might be better for my tastes.

It really bothered me and so I began remembering all the switches I tried and put them in a ordered list with a rating of 1 to 5, where 1 is "very bad" and 5 is "very good", like a 5-star rating system. I tried to be as objective as I could. The only switches I had for a long time though were the MX Red and Topre 45g (HHKBP2). I tested the MX Black, Brown and Blue on a Steelseries, a Razer and a Zowie keyboard for nearly 2 weeks though (had to send them back then).

For typing:

Code: Select all

Topre 45g (HHKBP2)      5
MX Brown                4
MX Blue                 4
MX Red                  3
MX Black                2

For FPS-Gaming:

Code: Select all

MX Red			  	    5
Topre 45g (HHKBP2)      4
MX Brown                4
MX Black                3
MX Blue                 1

If anybody has the similar taste in switches and a direct comparison with a Realforce 55g : is it worth it to order one? Is it better for typing and/or FPS-gaming?

I can only imagine that the little bit more resistance at the top might help in a more thorough thuck when typing, because the key has to be pressed with a little bit more force, therefore resulting in a little bit stronger landing. So the 55g should feel more "thucky" , more "topre" as the 45g. That's just my idea of it though, never tested one.

Please can anyone give me advice whether I should run out and get a 55g RF or if the 45g in a HHKBP2 are mostly the same or the 55g are worse/better for FPS-gaming or ....... ?

Posted: **01 Sep 2013, 23:08**

If your favourite switch for gaming is an MX Red, you're going to be in for a rude shock on the 55g Topre

The difference between the two (45/55) is quite noticeable. Some people really love the uniform 55g boards but I think they are too heavy for extended use.

Posted: **01 Sep 2013, 23:43**

if you like reds, keep the 45g, no reason to switch to a stiffer topres.

I find topre 45g even lighter than mx reds, at least that is the feeling being the activation point so near to the roof.

I like strong clicky switches, and topre 55gr is the only way to go for me.

Posted: **02 Sep 2013, 02:04**

Just received my Leopold FC660C with uniformly weighted 45 gram Topre switches. After using IBM buckling springs most of my typing life and recently investing in a series of Cherry mx boards for testing and possible adoption, I had not expected to like Topre switches, but I do. In fact, the FC660C could displace my IBM SSK as my daily driver except for a few things:

1. It needs sources for reasonably priced alternative keycaps of high quality, akin to the dye-sub PBT caps found on the RF 87u and HHKB Pro 2.

2. I think the board might benefit from having slightly heavier springs, e.g, 50 grams or possibly 55 grams, but I am not certain about this.

3. The price is too high, especially in comparison to the FC660M, which has the same form factor and layout, but Cherry mx switches instead of Topre switches.

I think I would need to use the FC660C for at least several more days before deciding if slightly heavier springs might be in order, at least as an option. However, unlike the price and keycaps issues, the spring weight in the FC660C is not a deal-breaker for me, and in fact, I do like the 45 gram springs very much.

Posted: **02 Sep 2013, 14:16**

Topre strikes again! I predict that new Leopold will become your first choice as you get more accustomed to it, RJ. Theyre addictive that way. Even for we spring bucklers.

By the way: the weight comes from the dome in Topre switches. The spring has little effect (you can take it out and see). It's actually there for the capacitative sensor to work! A riddle 002 explained to me. Different weights of Topre switch are based on different rubber sheets. Which makes modding weight harder than a simple swap of springs.

Detto: you're into light switches. You don't like MX black at all, and consider red to be superior in every situation? The lighter Topre is made for you. Be relieved you don't have to go out of your way for the rarer 55g version. Matt's crazy enough to want to mod his HHKB with 55g. The trouble being you can't just buy those, you have to chop up another keyboard!

Posted: **02 Sep 2013, 16:20**

Muirium wrote:Topre strikes again! I predict that new Leopold will become your first choice as you get more accustomed to it, RJ. Theyre addictive that way. Even for we spring bucklers.

By the way: the weight comes from the dome in Topre switches. The spring has little effect (you can take it out and see). It's actually there for the capacitative sensor to work! A riddle 002 explained to me. Different weights of Topre switch are based on different rubber sheets. Which makes modding weight harder than a simple swap of springs.

Detto: you're into light switches. You don't like MX black at all, and consider red to be superior in every situation? The lighter Topre is made for you. Be relieved you don't have to go out of your way for the rarer 55g version. Matt's crazy enough to want to mod his HHKB with 55g. The trouble being you can't just buy those, you have to chop up another keyboard!

Mu, Thank you for your insights. Topre switches are completely new to me, and I am on a learning curve. Your comments are helpful.

Yes, the Leopold FC660C could become my favorite board, but it is crying out for new keycaps.

If I do nothing else for the time being, the Leo came with a CapsLock and Control; instead of switching those, I may put the small CapsLock on the Windows key to get rid of the glaringly ugly Win 8 logo.

Posted: **02 Sep 2013, 16:57**

The devil on your shoulder whispers… HHKB!

I'd start shifting boards to those more eager, if I were you. The SSK's a keeper, of course, but Topres are quite the escalation.

Posted: **02 Sep 2013, 20:39**

I'm glad I could find some help and answers. Thank you very much!

Does the 55g pop up quicker?
Is the 45g easier to hold down?
Is one of those two easier to doubletap?
Is the 45g RF feel the same as the 45g HHKB?

Those are the questions that still bug me though.
Maybe someone who had both can shed some light?

Posted: **02 Sep 2013, 21:21**

We discussed the HHKB comparison a bit on Studiosushi's video thread:

http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8 ... t5876.html

As for your first three questions: I'd say there's no noticeable difference in return time, but that holding keys down and double tapping are probably better on 45g. That's just logic though, not experience. Any Topre gamers around here?

Posted: **03 Sep 2013, 14:29**

detto87 wrote: Does the 55g pop up quicker? Unnoticeable difference
Is the 45g easier to hold down? By a very very very small amount
Is one of those two easier to doubletap? they are both easy to dtap as the actuation point is near the top, but 45gr is lighter so...
Is the 45g RF feel the same as the 45g HHKB? no, RF is sturdier, HHKB has a plastic plate (the case is the plate)

Posted: **03 Sep 2013, 20:38**

Ultimately, you will probably just have to try and see. A 45 gram Topre in a HHKB Pro 2 will probably feel different from a 45 gram Topre in a RF 87u or Leopold FC660C. Moreover, the force-travel curves of switches vary, making it difficult to rank their typing feel based only on actuation force.

For example, because I found Cherry mx blues with an actuation force of 50 grams too light, and my main board is an IBM SSK with buckling springs, I thought I would prefer greens, but upon trying a board with greens, I found the 80 gram actuation too heavy. I suspect if I were to stay with Cherry-switch boards that I might like something in between blues and greens, such as clears, with an actuation force of 55 gram.

Matias switches are in this intermediate range as well (60 grams), and I did like typing on a Matias 4 board. Although the IBM buckling spring has an estimated actuation force of 60-80 g, it does not feel heavier to me than my Leopold FC660C with 45 gram Topres.

Fortunately, if I were to stay with the Leopold FC660M, thus far it comes only with uniformly weighted 45 gram Topres, like the HHKB Pro 2. However, if I were to switch to an RF board, I would have to chose among various switch weights. I am fairly certain I would not want a variable-weight board, and so it would come down to a choice between 45 and 55 grams. Based solely on my experience thus far and some semi-educated conjecture, I think I would prefer 45 grams, but I would need to try 55 grams to be sure.

Posted: **05 Sep 2013, 00:39**

Muirium wrote:The devil on your shoulder whispers… HHKB!
...

Yes, that devil (or angel, as the case may be) has been on my shoulder for some time, chanting that same mantra, HHKB...HHKB...HHKB... Now, from my experience with the Leopold FC660C, I know I like Topre switches. And one of the main things keeping me from adopting the Leo for my workstations is its lack of replacement keycaps -- like those on the HHKB Pro 2. Moreover, I like small form factor keyboards, and the style, symmetry, and elegance of the HHKB Pro 2 has always attracted me. There are only a few things keeping me from trying the HHKB:

Major things:
--Alien layout
--Lack of dedicated arrow keys
--Exorbitant price

Minor things:
--Low mass and density; lack of plate-mounted switches
--Lack of rubberized flip-out feet to avoid slippage on desk

It could help to hear more from those who have experience with the HHKB Pro 2 and/or Leopold FC660C to give their views on the pros and cons of one vs the other.

Posted: **05 Sep 2013, 01:18**

It's a devil. Definitely a devil. No doubting that. Just see what it says once you cave and get the HHKB…

I don't know what would be next for you. In my case it'd be "HiPro." "Hacked to TKL." "With 55 gram domes." "And Bluetooth."

All just variations on gotta catch em all, of course. But there's a lot more keyboards out there than Pokemon, far as I understand the critters. And the monsters you can make.

Posted: **05 Sep 2013, 18:32**

Yes, the nagging voice keeps telling me that I will never be able to put my mind at ease until I have at least given the HHKB Pro 2 a chance. I can already see myself at Keyboards Anonymous meetings standing up and admitting to my addiction, evoking my Higher Power, and finding my way through the twelve steps or whatever they are. Maybe there is a keyboard equivalent of methadone -- perhaps a switch tester board that I could use like a set of worry beads.

Posted: **05 Sep 2013, 19:38**

Welcome to Keyboards Anonymous! You've found the right place, all right.

Here's a trick: there's no rush. The HHKB Pro 2 has been out for a long old time now. It's enough of a stretch for me to get one that I'd rather wait it out and see what happens. My favourite missing feature is Bluetooth. I reckon the chances are good that it will become a standard option across all keyboards, especially the small ones. A Bluetooth HHKB Pro 3 is exactly the thing I can wait for.

Well, so long as we can't hack our own Topres before then…

Posted: **05 Sep 2013, 19:40**

Just this: Aluminum Case for HHKB...

(you know the case is the plate)

Posted: **05 Sep 2013, 19:43**

A little project of yours, Matt? Count me in for some Topre fit sphericals…

But, ahem, yes: admitting to your problem. That's the first step. Having more keyboards than fingers is usually the giveaway.

Posted: **05 Sep 2013, 19:49**

Muirium wrote:A little project of yours, Matt? Count me in for some Topre fit sphericals…

But, ahem, yes: admitting to your problem. That's the first step. Having more keyboards than fingers is usually the giveaway.

the case is extremely complex and CNC milling would be expensive. I've seen an alu case for the HHKB at $400 I think, but I can't find it anymore (was it ebay? can't remember).

It's all down to if I can put my hands on this damned CNC machine, we are planning a 1-month "workation" to NY with my wife and that would kill the CNC machine for a while.

Bluetooth would probably take precedence over alu case though.

Posted: **05 Sep 2013, 19:52**

Definitely Bluetooth > metal case. From my perspective, and hopefully Fujitsu's too. There's a whole lot of Bluetooth out there these days, and an HHKB is the highest quality travel keyboard available.

Posted: **05 Sep 2013, 22:56**

Guess I'm still old fashioned. For me, a mechanical keyboard isn't a real keyboard unless it has a cable. A detachable cable is as far as I am willing to go at present. So for me, I'll take the metal case for the HHKB Pro 2 before going all Blue in the Tooth.

As for more keyboards than fingers, I'm learning to touch type with my toes. I can hear the song now, "Tip-toe through the Topres with me". So, I have a few keyboards to go before I'm really in trouble.

Posted: **06 Sep 2013, 00:02**

detto87 wrote:Hello Hello!

Somehow, after using my HHKB Pro 2 for some months now, I began questioning myself if the 55g Realforce keyboard might be better for my tastes.
...

Recently, I have taken a hard look at various keyboard brands and companies, trying to separate style from substance, and focusing on consistent high quality of design, workmanship, and quality control. Among brands that are currently manufactured (as opposed to, e.g., IBM Model M and IBM SSK keyboards, which are among the all-time best but not being currently made), I believe that RealForce/Topre is arguably the best.

With respect to the much more subjective area of styling, I find the PFU/Topre HHKB Pro 2 hard to beat, but I think the build quality may not be as high as that of Realforce/Topre. I say this in consideration of the keyboards overall, not just the fact that the HHKB Pro 2 has PCB-mounted switches and the RF boards have plate-mounted switches.

I recall that Trev reached the same conclusion some time ago, and he posted his impressions in this Forum. BTW, I miss hearing from Trev, who always seemed to have interesting and sage comments to make.

Now I just wish that RF would come out with a 60%+ board. I envision a refined version of the Leo 660C, with RF build quality and their white and light gray dye sub PBT keycaps. It would be a HHKB for the rest of us.

Posted: **06 Sep 2013, 00:20**

Just a minor nitpick, the different between the HHKB and the Realforce in terms of switches is not that the HHKB is PCB-mounted, but that the upper switch housing on the HHKB is not discrete like it is on the Realforce. It is moulded as one piece of plastic that includes the entire top section of the HHKB case itself.
It is a shame that Trev doesn't hang around here much anymore. We swapped keyboards a few times as we're not too far from each other. I think he's a busy guy in general and is probably caught up in his other projects.

Posted: **06 Sep 2013, 00:34**

Good description of what's often described as the HHKB's "plastic plate" mount, 002. Although I like a good bit of metal in my keyboards, I've got to admit the HHKB looks pretty nifty when stripped of its caps. For a keyboard of its size, the middle-ground of a case-integrated plate probably makes a lot of sense for weight saving and so portability. I'm certainly intrigued.

Right enough, Trev was good at getting into details and always worth a read. But with a fancy Mac and a choice of Topres like that, you can tell he has important work! Perhaps he'll show up again when the keyboard bug next bites. Last I read he was pretty happy with his TKL Realforce, besides the bubble domed Windows keys…

Posted: **06 Sep 2013, 01:24**

Muirium wrote:Good description of what's often described as the HHKB's "plastic plate" mount, 002. Although I like a good bit of metal in my keyboards, I've got to admit the HHKB looks pretty nifty when stripped of its caps. For a keyboard of its size, the middle-ground of a case-integrated plate probably makes a lot of sense for weight saving and so portability. I'm certainly intrigued.

Right enough, Trev was good at getting into details and always worth a read. But with a fancy Mac and a choice of Topres like that, you can tell he has important work! Perhaps he'll show up again when the keyboard bug next bites. Last I read he was pretty happy with his TKL Realforce, besides the bubble domed Windows keys…

How could anyone be happy using a keyboard with those bubble-domed (or doomed) Win keys? As I recall, Trev seemed resigned rather than happy, describing his RF board as "underwhelming". Perhaps this reflects the need many of us have for style and panache in addition to competent engineering and quality control.

Posted: **06 Sep 2013, 01:28**

002 wrote:Just a minor nitpick, the different between the HHKB and the Realforce in terms of switches is not that the HHKB is PCB-mounted, but that the upper switch housing on the HHKB is not discrete like it is on the Realforce. It is moulded as one piece of plastic that includes the entire top section of the HHKB case itself.
It is a shame that Trev doesn't hang around here much anymore. We swapped keyboards a few times as we're not too far from each other. I think he's a busy guy in general and is probably caught up in his other projects.

Thanks for pointing this out. Even as I was writing the post, I had this uneasy feeling that I did not have it quite right. It is great to be a member of a forum with true experts to help keep things factual and useful.

Posted: **11 Sep 2013, 15:37**

Concerning the switch feel of
HHKB-45g VS RF-45g VS RF-55g
I guess it only comes down to preference.

I've read numerous threads (I guess all now) on geekhack and on deskthority that had a similar topic title like mine and there are not many people that have tested all 3, especially side by side.
Those that did prefer either HHKB-45g or RF-55g, sometimes but rarely the RF-45g.
The general opinion was that the RF-45g feels too mushy. IIRC when I owned a RF-45g in ISO format I had the same experience. It was a nice, pleasant and very smooth feeling but just not ploppy or satisfying enough.
The HHKB on the other hand delivers in that aspect although it is declared as 45g too. Housing makes the difference I guess.

With the question "how would THAT feel on a RF-55g now?" in my head for the last week during typing and gaming on my HHKB I came to the conclusion that I don't want heavier switches. That is because from time to time my fingers are more relaxed and almost(!) had trouble typing quickly because the force was too much. Those occasions are very rare though. Other times I missed a bit the ploppy feel of the switches when my fingers hammered on the board, that was rare too though.

Also: Considering that my fingers almost had a linear experience like on reds during gaming (because in some moments pressing WASD happens slower, therefore negating the resistance at the top) I am sure that lighter is better for gaming also on Topre not just Cherry MX. The landing feel was still present and it's welcomed, but the 45g help when pressing the switch slower I guess. There is still not a smooth activation point riding possible like on MX reds, but the difference is small to me now. 30g Topre would be best in that aspect I think, but there we are on a RF again and I guess it would be mushier or just plain linear to me, so no satisfying typing experience.

And last but not least comes the quality, design, comfort and whatnot, the whole package of the keyboard.
After using Noopoo Choc Mini as my first mechanical board, switching over to a Poker and almost Pure, and now for months using a HHKB, I can't imagine at all, even if the RF-55g would feel better (I doubt it though, as written), I would feel at ease using a RF again because of its size and form factor.
I can easily reposition my HHKB with one hand so I can make room for gaming or just put it on my lap when leaning back in the chair or just putting it in its ideal position for me for typing. The layout with backspace is just too good after longer use too.

Yeah, the keyboard isn't the switch only.
I'm too happy with my HHKB in so many aspects that I don't even consider a try-it-out anymore.
If there's a HHKB-55g sometime I would try it out of course. But as long as it's only available in a RF I don't wanna take the plunge.

Posted: **11 Sep 2013, 16:16**

detto87, you have captured some of what is going on in my own mind and expressed it very well. I am very attracted to the form factor and elegance of the HHKB Pro 2, but I think I would need to have a more standard layout and dedicated arrow keys. The Leopold FC660C is about right, but I want it to have better keycaps, like those on the white/gray models of the HHKB Pro 2 or RF 87U. I think I might also like the heavier 55-gram Topres, but I am not certain. So, at the moment, it could be that more of my criteria would be met by buying a white/gray 55-gram RF 87U (or better, a black one and then putting white/gray keycaps on it). However, I think I would be disappointed because of the TKL form factor of the RF 87U. Perhaps I will just wait to see if a dye-sub PBT keycap set becomes available for the Leopold FC660C.

Posted: **13 Sep 2013, 18:44**

My first experience with Topre was the 45g HHKB. It was a bit underwhelming. It wasn't really that satisfying to type on.

However, I now own a 55g RealForce keyboard and I must say that the 55g Topre switches are very satisfying. The thockiness is better, too. The only complaint I have is the rattle some of the keys make on the upstroke (mainly the space bar), but I'll be doing a dental band mod soon.

If you're deliberating whether or not to get a 55g RealForce, I don't think the purchase is satisfied for purely gaming reasons. If you're looking for an amazing all-around keyboard, then go for it.

Posted: **13 Sep 2013, 19:20**

After sampling opinions on GH and DT coupled with my own experience with the Leopold FC660C and simulating the layout of the HHKB Pro 2 on a standard keyboard using KeyReMap4MacBook, I have concluded that the best overall Topre-switch keyboard for me that is currently available is the white/gray RF 87u with uniformly weighted 55-gram switches.

One tweak I might make is to put the white/gray keycaps on a black RF 87u, or to put the white/gray RF 87u into an aluminum case.

Posted: **17 Sep 2013, 14:11**

rjrich wrote: ...
I recall that Trev reached the same conclusion some time ago, and he posted his impressions in this Forum. BTW, I miss hearing from Trev, who always seemed to have interesting and sage comments to make.

Haha, I'm still here! I ended up taking on a huge contract that had an unreasonably short deadline (but respectable pay). I've been working every day, non-stop.

Muirium wrote:...
Right enough, Trev was good at getting into details and always worth a read. But with a fancy Mac and a choice of Topres like that, you can tell he has important work! Perhaps he'll show up again when the keyboard bug next bites. Last I read he was pretty happy with his TKL Realforce, besides the bubble domed Windows keys…

Me and the 87U Silent are now in an exclusive long-term relationship

I still hate the bubble keys, but have accepted that she's not perfect. I'll swap them out some day. Ideally, I'd like to have the bottom row showing correct Mac modifier legends too.

I still have my KBT Pure built-up with ergo-clears/stickers/etc, but it's now on TV media-centre duty.

Everyone is entitled to their own experiences and opinions, but I can't personally see myself finding a better keyboard unless Topre upgrades their own hardware somehow. Cherry and Co just aren't even playing the same game (IMO).

Perhaps when the product is launched (lawyers, NDA right now...) I can show off what all of these key-presses contributed to.

deskthority

Topre 45g VS 55g again ;_;

Topre 45g VS 55g again ;_;