deskthority

Can I get some opinions on old vintage white Alps vs Cherry MX Blues? From my reading, both are tactile and clicky. Any difference in the overall feel? Actuation, key travel, etc?

Simply put, Cherry MX blue feels about half the weight of complicated white Alps, and a lot smoother.

Cherry MX switches are superb with respect to off-centre presses, i.e. no matter where you press on a keycap, and from what angle, the switch will depress smoothly. White Alps is finicky and can be prone to binding if you don't hit it centrally, and Alps switches have weird problems like being reported to work better with increased humidity — I don't know the cause, but I don't get a consistent feel from day to day off the same keyboard. Personally I'd avoid complicated white Alps. I suspect that cost-cutting at the end of the 80s started leading to degraded switch quality.

The flip side is that Cherry's idea of a "click" is pretty pathetic. I gave up after a few days of slogging away on a Datacomp white Alps, but the meaty click sound is decidedly mechanical — instead of Cherry's rattle, it really sounds like there's mechanical parts moving inside the switch. (The damped sound of that keyboard, I've realised, comes from the fact that you can bend the PCB/plate downwards — I don't know if a rivet fell out or something, but it's almost as bendy as a PCB-mount G80-3000!)

Alps and Alps clone travel is typically 3.5 mm, compared to Cherry's 4 mm.

I'm waiting for Matias to introduce the PC Tactile Pro so that I can evaluate their clicky switches, as they should be the switch that the white Alps should have been but never was. Buying a bag of those switches and fitting them to a Dell AT101W/AT102W is a much easier way to get a clicky Alps board in standard ANSI or ISO than sourcing 104/105 vintage blue Alps switches in unknown condition. (The white Alps switches in my Datacomp are in terrible condition.)

And while I was thinking of an answer, Mr. Beardsmore explained it all much better! With Cherry, you know what you're going to get. Alps, it really depends on what the keyboard's been through, which version of the mechanism is inside, and who actually made the switches. All these things vary a lot more than blues ever have.

I'm glad you mentioned the sound difference. I recently picked up a MacTouch SIIG, which has white Alps (not sure if they are complex - how to tell?). I bought it because it was pretty cheap and I had read somewhere that the switches were clicky. I tried the keys first thing out of the box and I really liked the sound. I haven't noticed any binding issues, but I really haven't had the chance to type on it yet.

I only wanted the board for parts to build a prototype I'm working on. So I only needed the switches and the ten-key part of the metal mounting plate. I wanted to turn the ten-key sideways to have a 5x4 grid. Problem is, the Alps switches have a rectangular body, so I can't mount them in the plate sideways. Second, the keycaps will only fit in the switches one way, so I can't turn them sideways either. Urgh!

That's what got me thinking about the Cherry switches. From all I can tell the Cherry keycaps can mount any of the four directions without problem. But, the sound is pretty important to me, so I'll try a few more things before I give up.

Yes, you're right about the mounts. MX caps can go on at any multiple of 90 degrees. Alps mount only 180. MX switches are also perfectly square at the plate mount line so fit into square holes. The show offs!

I hope, one day Matias makes smooth tactile switches. Their current ones are a bit scratchy, similar to MX clears.

Muirium wrote:Yes, you're right about the mounts. MX caps can go on at any multiple of 90 degrees.

It depends a lot on the caps though. The cross on the slider is reportedly not perfectly "symmetric", so there are rumours of people who broke vintage keycaps when they were pushed on a 90º rotated switch.

Signature plastics caps shouldn't have the problem as much, their stems are a somewhat looser fit and hence their stem won't break as quickly.

True. I just tried it with Signature Plastics SAs, which are big and tough, and it feels fine. But not all caps are alike.

Muirium wrote:Yes, you're right about the mounts. MX caps can go on at any multiple of 90 degrees.

Followed by a rather atypical (for Germans) diagram where the mount is drawn completely wrong, without that 90° rotational symmetry. I pretty much completed redrawing the top view a long time ago, but I had to abandon my diagram owing to not having any way to redo the side view. Maybe one day I'll finish it off, now that I have a pile of spare MX switches to measure.

sean4star wrote:I'm glad you mentioned the sound difference. I recently picked up a MacTouch SIIG, which has white Alps (not sure if they are complex - how to tell?).

Interesting, didn't know about the MacTouch (well, I did apparently, in April 2012) — the FCC grantee is Commtron Corporation ("GMB"), from Des Moines. Interesting, as the SIIG Suntouch K101 is Chicony, the SIIG MiniTouch is Monterey (sourced from two different factories), and the SIIG MiniTouch Plus is BTC.

If you post a photo of a switch I'll ID it. You can compare the difference on the wiki.

Interesting. The SIIG MacTouch is the same as the melted ETC Power Glide I got from Ascaii (apparently — I don't have it to hand), which is also branded as a Micro Warehouse Power User keyboard. Allegedly, the true OEM is Ortek — unlike many keyboards, every instance I've found of this has its own FCC ID, none of which appear to be the OEM. The "O" on the command key of some instances is suggested to be for Ortek, but I can't find enough evidence to say what their logo was back then — the Wayback Machine only goes back to 2011.

Photos that include the rear label and the "O" glyph on the command keys:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291018558880

The PCB says "FWEC":

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=4717.0

No idea what to put this on the wiki under, as there's no known OEM source product :(

There's also a SIIG MacTouch Plus, apparently, but I can't find any photos of it or any other information.

Incidentally mine has a Futaba latching action switch under caps lock, so it's not the same keyboard, not exactly anyway, as the disassembly shots above show a normal Alps switch under caps lock. I need to double-check mine tomorrow (case, PCB etc).

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:...Followed by a rather atypical (for Germans) diagram where the mount is drawn completely wrong, without that 90° rotational symmetry. ....

Maybe the pic is distorted, because the switch case isn't shown symmetrical too. Could also just be a diagramm for measurements reference. In general the given measurements have to be 100% precise whilst the drawing and other non given measurements can be off (although seldomly are). I don't know where this originates, but measurements in inch imply it's not from the european area, totally uncommon to state these.

As for the crosses measurements:
vertical bar: 4,0mm by 1,04mm thickness and the horizontal bar: 4,0mm by 1,24mm thickness.

FWIW, my ETC Power Glide 105 is a indeed an Ortek: it says Ortek on the PCB and controller chip. Same FCC ID as the SIIG MacTouch.