deskthority

Just wanted to get some opinions, as I've never purchased a 3rd party key caps set (never owned a Cherry board, actually, so this wasn't a possibility). Now that I have a Cherry compatible board on the way, I had some questions.

How is the quality and consistency of SP's PBT keycaps? For example, I had my eye on the Think Different group buy, which has DSA profile PBT dyesub caps.

I know that SP has produced some of the most photogenic keycaps I've seen recently (thanks to the designs of various people who've worked hard to get these group buys going), but I've also heard scattered complaints about unevenly sized keys, warping, very noticeable sprue marks, etc. Also comments along the lines of GMK producing better quality (more consistent) keycaps, although without the variety SP provides.

I guess I'm asking because I'm the kind of person who would be horribly bothered by uneven keycaps, funny gaps, and the like. I'm a perfectionist to the point that I often wish I was less picky - I'd enjoy life more But as it is, poor tolerances would totally ruin the pleasure of a nice keycap set for me, and at that point what's the point? So I wanted to ask before buying - are SP's keycap sets as bad as some complaints have made them out to be? Or was that just an issue with some early runs?

Thanks!
R

Yes and no. They're imperfect, but inconsistently so. You'll probably be alright, but maybe not! I'd better break out of this good news bad news loop while I still can…

With luck, you should get something nice.



But then again!

So Muirium, do you suggest he should get some caps, but maybe not worth it?
Or that he shouldn't get them, although it might be a good idea?

I think it's definitely worth maybe checking SP's excellently variable caps out, because they're surely almost guaranteed to blow you away. If you're lucky. Maybe.

Kidding aside, I've bought several superb sets of theirs: Round 4 SPH, PBT Granite, DSA Dolch, and one or two extras I can't instantly remember. They're mostly great. And when you do run into problems, SP has customer support (Melissa) who really do fix things when you point them out. Best of all: you don't get charged, even customs, for replacement caps. If you're patient, and don't mind playing as SP's quality assurance department for yourself, they're worth going for. As all the pictures show, they make damn pretty caps.

Just don't go thinking you'll get an easy time. You might. But…

Thanks

At least it sounds like QC issues aren't exactly invitable, and if they happen they'll try to resolve them.

It's those artsy shots that get me... so tempting, but they're like the Myspace selfie of keycaps... hiding any deformities. Show me a an in-focus, top down shot, so I can see the consistency of all the gaps

MySpace? What is this anachronism! Are you a time traveller!? No, don't tell me. Show me!


Plenty more pictures of the Granite set:

http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/novat ... t8488.html

The Think Different set should be similar… ish. Well, if you're lucky.

Generally speaking they are pretty good with double shot. Of all probably DCS Double with standard WYSE font is the least subject to production errors.

To the other side of the spectrum you'll find PBT DCS with dye sublimated legends. I'm pretty sure they would be the most problematic.

That being said SP makes also a lot sorting errors, so it's not rare to miss a key (or 2... or 10...).

So to reply to your question, SP QC is mostly not existent (meaning they just produce and pack) BUT they are super helpful in case of problems. I've never heard Melissa refusing to replace the keycaps or a refund.

What is the quality control of the SA profile caps? I assume that it is a bit higher as they seem to be the most expensive keycap design that SP offers!

SP error rate chart by material (lower to higher errors):
1) ABS
2) PC
3) PBT

by profile:
1) DCS
2) DSA
3) SA

by legends/printing method:
1) Pad printing
2) double shot WYSE
3) double shot Cherry (DCS only)
4) double shot custom
5) Dye sublimation (not available in SA)

How reassuring!

By the way, I don't know if there is an inherent price difference between profiles. SA is more massive than the rest, sure. But as a look through PMK will show you: SP's prices are highly dependent on quantity. Their setup costs dwarf materials for small runs.

Meanwhile, relatively large ones like (SA doubleshot) Round 5 knock them out of shape as they seem poor at choosing what precise caps to manufacture on any given day. Small outfit!

DSA is the cheaper because all the keys are the same, there are no rows, so less setup costs.

For the same reason SA all row 3 is cheaper than SA variable-row. SA is more expensive because of the quantity of plastic.

What really impacts on pricing is human labor anyway. For example for dye sub I seem to recall that they can sublimate about 30 keys at a time. If your kit has 31 keys it is going to add setup costs.

Yeah, of course this makes more sense; they don't care what you're making as they take the same profit margin on all of them.

So where does the error rate come from? The fact that they have to set things up multiple times in a session allowing for a greater chance for errors?

I don't care about their internal error rate in production; higher error rates should mean higher prices or lower profit (because they have to do things several times) but otherwise be irrelevant for the customer.

The problem are errors that get shipped out, which is a whole different story! What I don't understand is how keys with mirrored legends or sets with 20% nmissing keycaps can be sent out around the world. That must be awfully expensive for them.

I guess doubleshots would be a whole lot more work, since custom molds are needed?

Also, I guess I'm sort of puzzled at the quality control issues with Dyesub DSA, since there's basically one mold for all the 1x keys - the only differences are color and what gets printed on. And yet people have found size inconsistencies etc.

PBT is tricky to mold, because it shrinks more as it cools down. It's especially prone to bending: banana shaped spacebars! So yeah, what sounds easy can be quite hard with PBT. It's not as well behaved stuff as docile old ABS.

Not that this stopped IBM and NMB from making perfectly good, straight PBT spacebars in the 1980s and 90s. But that knowledge seems to be be as lost as an ancient language. Everyone's rediscovering it for themselves.

Muirium wrote: PBT is tricky to mold, because it shrinks more as it cools down. It's especially prone to bending: banana shaped spacebars! So yeah, what sounds easy can be quite hard with PBT. It's not as well behaved stuff as docile old ABS.

So does everyone just accept bannana shaped PBT spacebars from SP, or is that something that is recognized as a QC problem and exchanged?

(also, hasn't SP been making keycaps for years? Is PBT a new material for them?)

I loved the retro styled SP caps sold as FILCO branded caps, the colour was just wonderful, but the quality was dreadful. As Mu said, its a little hit and miss. A great shame.

Shiva had a pretty rough time with that particular SP set. No thanks to "Filco", whose name appears on the packaging but who don't seem to give a toss about "their" product!

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/fil ... t9401.html


@Robo: Everything easy is hard, at SP. They're in a parallel cuckoo universe where it's better to box up whatever comes out of the machine and send it off to customers to complain about and ship replacements to, than to bloody LOOK AT WHAT THEY JUST MADE first…

it's easier (economically) to pack and ship and deal with errors later, than pack, check, ship. They made a company decision, we might not like it because we are enthusiasts, for the other 90% of the world is just fine.

The other 99.99% of the world doesn't use SP caps…

Their main clients are keyboard manufacturers looking for custom caps (like Access-IS for their customisable point of sale boards) which are still a niche within the awful world of disposable mainstream keyboards.

Muirium wrote: ...They're in a parallel cuckoo universe where it's better to box up whatever comes out of the machine and send it off to customers to complain about and ship replacements to, than to bloody LOOK AT WHAT THEY JUST MADE first…

They would need TRAINED monkeys to do that Mu...
Now all the burden is on Melissa who is excellent at what she does, but is alone in trying to juggle all the incoming requests, orders, complaints, replacements...whatever.
They don't seem to understand that, especially with "enthusiast" GB's, no improvisation is acceptable. They should make REALLY CLEAR what their capacity and options are (fonts, font sizes, etc) along with their weaknesses (Shif t, dye-sub alignment, etc) and when something falls outside their limits, contact BEFORE manufacturing...
And they seem to bite more than they can chew all the time. They are a small outfit and they should accept just enough orders not to exceed their capacity. Or expand.

Meanwhile, pretty pictures summon more newbs, for whom chaos, delay and disappointment awaits!



What a business model. Good job they don't have any direct competition. Until they do…

Muirium wrote: The other 99.99% of the world doesn't use SP caps…

Their main clients are keyboard manufacturers looking for custom caps (like Access-IS for their customisable point of sale boards) which are still a niche within the awful world of disposable mainstream keyboards.

Granite Round 2 was sold to keyboard noobs by a very good margin.

How well does it work scissor switch keyboards? Most computers sold now are laptops… if you ignore phones, which don't have keyboards at all, but are the mainstream computing platform.

90% of people have literally no use for MX keycaps. In fact, more than 99%. Even the vast majority of desktop users, which are increasingly another niche, use the cheapest crappiest rubberdomes their computer's OEM could lay its hands on.

Muirium wrote: How well does it work scissor switch keyboards? Most computers sold now are laptops… if you ignore phones, which don't have keyboards at all, but are the mainstream computing platform.

90% of people have literally no use for MX keycaps. In fact, more than 99%. Even the vast majority of desktop users, which are increasingly another niche, use the cheapest crappiest rubberdomes their computer's OEM could lay its hands on.

"90% of the world" [that is in for a novelty key set]. I thought it was clear, but please pardon my lousy English.

That's more like it!

Trouble is, 90% of that tiny little world isn't enough to reliably hit SP's amazingly low MOQs (25 single units, right?) for language kits.

http://deskthority.net/want-to-buy-f56/ ... ml#p209591

Probably a good number of people do have QC problems but don't report it, as I am sure that some people wouldn't want to got to the hassle of chasing up a company for scratched or mis-molded keycaps.

Completely the wrong way of looking at things though, and makes me appreciate ordering from 7bit where he actually sorts out the crappy ones!

That's the worst bit. It probably is cheaper for them if most people don't bother following up about bendy spacebars and the rest. But the cost comes at the expense of SP's reputation.

This is the sort of thing it only makes sense to do if you have a monopoly. What about when Vortex gets their act together and beats SP on quality and price? Especially doubleshot PBT! Configurability is SP's trump card. They've not got much else if anyone chooses to compete.

Vortex is already better than SP on PBT. As you said the killer point of SP is low MOQ on weird configurations and to do that they lower QC. It's one or the other. Or of course you could pay $500 for a set of keycaps.

That's Cherry talk!

For $500, I'd want them on a better switch…