F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Ellipse · 23 Aug 2015, 05:37

Hi Hypersphere,

I have been suggesting the F77 option for those looking for something close to a Model F equivalent of an SSK layout. The F77 option can be configured with just about all of the SSK keys except for separate function keys (they would instead be the function layer of the F77 number keys).

Thanks friendlyfloor40. Please suggest a pantone color for which cyan you're looking for (I suggest looking at a pantone book at a hardware store as the colors look different on most screens). If there's enough interest or if whoever wants one is willing to pay the additional color fees from the factory I am open to it. The fees could total $100 or more plus paint costs, divided among whoever orders one in a month or so.

Hypersphere · 23 Aug 2015, 12:45

Ellipse wrote: ↑Hi Hypersphere,

I have been suggesting the F77 option for those looking for something close to a Model F equivalent of an SSK layout. The F77 option can be configured with just about all of the SSK keys except for separate function keys (they would instead be the function layer of the F77 number keys).

Thanks friendlyfloor40. Please suggest a pantone color for which cyan you're looking for (I suggest looking at a pantone book at a hardware store as the colors look different on most screens). If there's enough interest or if whoever wants one is willing to pay the additional color fees from the factory I am open to it. The fees could total $100 or more plus paint costs, divided among whoever orders one in a month or so.

Okay, thanks. It is just that the SSK is such a beautiful design. All it needs is Model F switches instead of Model M. However, if this is not in your future plans I can certainly be content with the Kishsaver model. My favorite form factor is 60% anyway.

hammelgammler · 23 Aug 2015, 15:28

Hey Ellipse,
you said the Industrial color will be something like RAL 7030, and you said it will look approximately like you Industrial SSK.

Industrial SSK:

: Industrial SSK for sale.jpg (982.34 KiB) Viewed 5701 times

Industrial SSK (keychatter.com):

: keychatter_2015-02-21_19-51-34.jpg (975.92 KiB) Viewed 5695 times

RAL 7030 (dorkdaver's photo):

: Industrial grey.jpg (991.37 KiB) Viewed 5701 times

You grey looks much darker then his though, or is it just the photo or my eyes?

Muirium · 23 Aug 2015, 15:32

They've really got to be in the same photo to compare.

hammelgammler · 23 Aug 2015, 15:35

Muirium wrote: ↑They've really got to be in the same photo to compare.

Can it make such a "huge" difference if there are not in the same photo?

Muirium · 23 Aug 2015, 15:37

Yes. A camera will even gladly make bright white look like custard yellow in different light. You can't tell anything without controlled conditions.

Ellipse will have some good pictures I suspect.

chzel · 23 Aug 2015, 15:38

Yeap.
For one, the last pic is under direct natural light, and the others either artificial or diffused natural.
Diffused light picks up any color cast the surrounding environment provides.

hammelgammler · 23 Aug 2015, 15:41

Oh well, that's good to know! I'm not really into photography, you will know something like that better then me.
I was just curious.

snoopy · 23 Aug 2015, 18:29

The industrial color is very hard to catch on photos. It always looks different than in real.

Ellipse · 23 Aug 2015, 18:57

Confirmed - RAL 7030 will be one of the powdercoated color options for the F77 and F62, along with beige (something close to the painted Model F color) and black.

Exposure and lighting definitely play a factor in perceived color, so all three of these photos could be how you perceive the color. The color may look different if you are in an office vs. in a room with only sunlight vs. being outdoors.

XMIT · 23 Aug 2015, 19:02

Wait a few days and hopefully my RAL 7030 powdercoated F107s will be back. I'll post some photos when they are!

Ellipse · 23 Aug 2015, 19:06

xmit could you photograph an Industrial M in the same photo as your powdercoated F107s? It would be interesting to compare them in the same photo.

chalks · 23 Aug 2015, 19:29

A photo of a RAL 7030 board next to a beige board would also be helpful. For instance, the RAL 7030 in this photo is a more biegy grey than those in hammelgammler's post.

(The image was taken from http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/kishs ... ml#p148314 )

modology · 24 Aug 2015, 07:19

Any updates so far? Xmas is approaching very soon. Can I anticipate that we will get some boards before or by xmas?

fohat · 25 Aug 2015, 02:23

snoopy wrote: ↑The industrial color is very hard to catch on photos. It always looks different than in real.

Yes, it really is interesting. A non-color that includes all colors. A truly masterful background to capture and neutralize a very wide range of soiling and damage that is itself at once beautiful and innocuous.

Ellipse · 25 Aug 2015, 05:34

Here's an update modology - Look what arrived in the mail today from China

Some truly nice PCB design work by one of the senior DT contributors who has been very helpful throughout the PCB design process! I could not have done this nearly as well as he did!

Interestingly the standard unaltered copper color used today for the traces (as well as the PCB material) is a lot less dark than what was used in the mid to late 80s but reminds me of some of the very early beamspring PCBs, at least when back illuminated.

It is my understanding that the tradeoff to getting a darker copper color is you would need to change the solder mask from the current clear solder mask to dark brown, but then you would lose the nice transparent effect where you can see the back side column traces through the PCB (another more expensive PCB shop may be able to do custom copper and PCB colors but that is out of budget).

A note - the bottom inner assembly pictured with the new PCBs is from an original F77 - the prototypes have not yet gone into production.

: 20150824_231413.jpg (265.59 KiB) Viewed 5511 times

: 20150824_231343.jpg (321.55 KiB) Viewed 5511 times

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: 20150824_231735.jpg (240.57 KiB) Viewed 5511 times

REVENGE · 25 Aug 2015, 05:50

Ellipse wrote: ↑Here's an update modology - Look what arrived in the mail today from China

Some truly nice PCB design work by one of the senior DT contributors who has been very helpful throughout the PCB design process! I could not have done this nearly as well as he did!

Interestingly the standard unaltered copper color used today for the traces (as well as the PCB material) is a lot less dark than what was used in the mid to late 80s but reminds me of some of the very early beamspring PCBs, at least when back illuminated.

It is my understanding that the tradeoff to getting a darker copper color is you would need to change the solder mask from the current clear solder mask to dark brown, but then you would lose the nice transparent effect where you can see the back side column traces through the PCB (another more expensive PCB shop may be able to do custom copper and PCB colors but that is out of budget).

A note - the bottom inner assembly pictured with the new PCBs is from an original F77 - the prototypes have not yet gone into production.

20150824_231413.jpg

20150824_231343.jpg

20150824_231826.jpg

20150824_231735.jpg

PCBs looking good, I think the real test will be the quality of the flippers, springs, and barrels.

sean4star · 25 Aug 2015, 07:13

I'm just now seeing this. Can't believe I missed it for so long. Just wow! Had to put myself down for an F62.

Redmaus · 25 Aug 2015, 14:52

That gorgeous, brown, PCB!

Khers · 25 Aug 2015, 14:59

I like it a lot! No need to go for absolute authenticity in my book (I'm in for the non-authentic HHKB-layout anyway

). Is the tray they're mounted on from the prototype, or is it the one from your F77?

macmakkara · 25 Aug 2015, 15:29

I want one! Thats fantastic.

chzel · 25 Aug 2015, 15:31

Khers wrote: ↑Is the tray they're mounted on from the prototype, or is it the one from your F77?

Ellipse wrote: ↑ A note - the bottom inner assembly pictured with the new PCBs is from an original F77 - the prototypes have not yet gone into production.

chzel · 25 Aug 2015, 15:31

BTW the PCBs are looking great!

0100010 · 25 Aug 2015, 15:46

Stupid question I'm sure - but why is there a grounding mask over the row traces (or at least looks like there is in the pics)?

XMIT · 25 Aug 2015, 16:24

They look great, but do they work?

Khers · 25 Aug 2015, 16:35

chzel wrote: ↑
Khers wrote: ↑Is the tray they're mounted on from the prototype, or is it the one from your F77?

Ellipse wrote: ↑ A note - the bottom inner assembly pictured with the new PCBs is from an original F77 - the prototypes have not yet gone into production.

Thanks! Didn't read carefully enough, was too excited

Ellipse · 26 Aug 2015, 03:22

Great success! I soldered the controllers tonight and both the F77 and F62 PCBs are working so far. I made some extra prototype PCBs in case anyone wanted to use one of their own xwhatsit controllers.

I have ordered the CNC milled and powdercoated F77 and F62 case prototypes; they should go into production this week or next week.

Below is the EPS foam (Styrofoam) design for packing each keyboard, similar to the design of the original foam from my NIB F77 and made of the same material. The design is the same for the top and bottom piece to save on tooling costs. Extra foam and double walled custom fit boxes will be available for order if you wanted one for your original F62 Kishsaver.

: foam packaging.jpg (83.04 KiB) Viewed 5344 times

andrewjoy · 26 Aug 2015, 15:51

The PCB is that good at first i assumed it was an IBM original.

Is there solder mask on it at all over the copper ? would not want it to tarnish

pyrelink · 26 Aug 2015, 16:01

Looks pretty promising Ellipse!

Ellipse · 26 Aug 2015, 16:10

Yes clear soldermask everywhere so it is protected and you can see through the PCB and see the copper traces on both sides. The ground pads and controller holes do not have soldermask.

010-allow me to quote the PCB designer to answer your question:
Xwhatsit's controller has a trace (and two resistor arrays) on the top of the board that go under the matrix "rows". Because of this, the rows have to come to the controller from the bottom of the board (where there is no obstruction).