Nothing about ergonomic (mechanical) keyboard ?

webwit · 10 May 2011, 21:12

Nice! I hope you can make it work. And that you'll cut the keyboard in two!

Input Nirvana · 10 May 2011, 21:24

How about this thought:

I understand how at this point you may not be interested in a split-design idea, but how about designing everything with the idea that it can be split in a later version with a minimum of changes? (ie; not having the main pcb located in the center like a Kinesis Contoured?).

sordna · 11 May 2011, 21:25

Very nice, however the "wave" of the keys is too exaggerated, you are creating another "staggered keyboard" in a different dimension

The "wave" of the needs to be subtle, otherwise I believe it will create more trouble than benefit, especially when typing in the bottom two rows, as well as when finger hopping. I wouldn't create a wave any more pronounced than the Truly Ergonomic design has.

As we progressively bend our fingers, the uneven length of the finger becomes less of an issue, and in fact if you bend them enough, you would actually need the middle and ring finger columns to be same level, if not LOWER than the others. Here is an extreme example to illustrate my point, when fingers are really bent, you would need the opposite kind of "wave".

Of course you would never type with the fingers bent so much, but I think typing on the bottom row of the keyboard bends the fingers enough to warrant the bottom row to be preferably straight.

So to compromise between the ideal position of the top rows (wave) vs the bottom rows (straight) you need to compromise by making the wave subtler. While I don't like the Truly Ergonomic's angle or separation between halves (both are too little in my opinion), I think it got the "wave" from column to column right. In fact, even subtler would be fine too.

I am using the kinesis contoured keyboard, and similarly to yours, it has the pinky finger column lower than the ring finger column. While it helps reaching the letter Q and the number 1, it actually makes it a tiny bit harder to reach the letter Z (in qwerty) and even worse for the key below that. The "wave" is a bit too exaggerated.

Anyway, it's a promising design you have there, please keep working on it! Most importantly, make the halves totally separate, to allow the users to choose their own angle/separation and even tenting of the keyboard halves.

nesiax · 11 May 2011, 21:56

input nirvana wrote:How about this thought:

I understand how at this point you may not be interested in a split-design idea, but how about designing everything with the idea that it can be split in a later version with a minimum of changes? (ie; not having the main pcb located in the center like a Kinesis Contoured?).

I currently have the cherry mx keyswitches (with diodes), and the teensy 2.0 controller, i am in the schematics design stage, so i will as you propose, put the controller in one side, creating two pcb boards joined together via a ribbon cable, this way i can test which space and degree will be the most comfortable for me.

Next buy will be the keycaps, i am thinking about buying DSA keycaps

,
i am not sure if DCS are a good option taking in mind this is gonna be an ergonomical keyboard. Any suggestions ?

Later i will decide how to set up the case, for now i don't care about this.

nesiax · 11 May 2011, 22:02

sordna wrote:Very nice, however the "wave" of the keys is too exaggerated, you are creating another "staggered keyboard" in a different dimension

Hi, i agree with you, they are too exaggerated, i need to refine this, later i will post the pcb layout files on the key64 website, so every one can adapt it to the size of their hands, if somebody wants to order a custom pcb from an online manufacturer like expresspcb.com or similar ones.

webwit · 11 May 2011, 22:13

I think that last picture is a fail of ergonomic "experts" selling snake oil, or more accurately, expensive adjustable keyboard trays. In fact those sculped keys were the result of ergonomics before the word existed, and designs like the HHKB are made after it, because they view this design as the ergonomic one. There is no hard science behind ergonomics, and the older view has as only motivation to make typing more comfortable, not to sell keyboard trays.

You can see the actual problem in the picture above. With the "right" design, you have to stretch for the number and function keys. With sculped keys or an angle, you don't.

Their reasoning is: with a flat angle, you don't have to bend your wrists!
But that is simply wrong. Don't take my word, do this experiment: Place your fingers on the home row of a keyboard with an increasing angle. Move one index finger up to hit a function key. You don't bend your wrist, it just decreases the travel for the finger. This is because you lift your finger to make the movement. The wrist is not involved at all. Now do the same on a keyboard like in the "right" picture. Wrists stay the same too, but the function key is harder to reach.

It is simply not true that the angle of the keys determines the angle of your wrists. The height of the desk + height to the home row of the keyboard is what determines this. And your habits.

nesiax · 11 May 2011, 22:19

Ok, will be DCS

webwit · 11 May 2011, 22:28

I wish I could find that HHKB design document. It was very elaborate and scientific. No surprise coming from the hands of Eiiti Wada. It was a bit like this info, but about other aspects of the keyboard. This man researched his keyboard. Maybe one of the documents here.

appie747 · 12 May 2011, 00:31

daedalus wrote:
appie747 wrote:But a last try: It's a great design!
Try what? It doesn't exist. It's a non-keyboard! There is nothing to try!

Ik was trying to explain ('try') why people pre-order the TE, although TE has nothing to show us yet... There are a lot of people, including me, who want to have it become a reality.

sordna · 12 May 2011, 06:45

What do you find so desireable about the TE compared to say a Kinesis Advantage (also non-staggered, ergonomic, progrommable, MX switches) which exists and is readily available ?

appie747 · 15 May 2011, 20:17

sordna wrote:What do you find so desireable about the TE compared to say a Kinesis Advantage (also non-staggered, ergonomic, progrommable, MX switches) which exists and is readily available ?

Good question! First there is the price! Not looking at the shipping: The TE is 150 euro and the Advantage, from a dealer here in Holland: 350 euro.

I also like the fact that is not so radically different from a regular keyboard but still solves a lot of 100 year old faults in the regular keyboard layout. A hunt-and-peck person could use it without much difficulty, for example.

I also think it would encourage people to learn to touch type because they can see from the layout of the TE that it's made for that. A normal keyboard is obviously not!

Satisfied?

sordna · 16 May 2011, 00:56

150 vs 350 euros? That huge difference doesn't make sense, I would look for another dealer. In North America, fentek-ind.com for example sells the Kinesis for $269 (shipping is free). The TE is $199 + expensive shipping, so the cost difference is minimal.
I think the TE would be especially good for hunt-and-peckers that want to stay hunt and peckers. I was a hunt and pecker but the Kinesis is so intuitive, that it made me a touch typist. Anyway, I wish that more and more keyboards come in the market that have straight columns instead of the stupid staggered keys. I just don't think the TE is offering any major improvement to what the existing offerings (Kinesis & Maltron) have today. If they made the keyboard with totally separated/movable halves, then I would be tempted to preorder it... that would be TRULY ergonomic. But given it's fixed, my choice is the Kinesis because it has better hand separation, and is angled (alleviates pronation) which the TE does not.

Input Nirvana · 16 May 2011, 21:14

As a reference, take a look at the Kinesis Freestyle. I had a PC version (one of my employees with wrist pain took it), and a Mac version. One of the things that Kinesis did that was probably wise from a marketing standpoint, they kept the keyboard "standard key layout staggering" so when the keyboard is together, there is little "adoption fear". They also offer some "hot keys" for those really progressive typists.

But more importantly, they offer several ergo option with add-on kits for determining the separation distance and angles. In my mind, if I make a comparison, I'm seeing a vastly improved Freestyle candidate (matrix/staggering/switches/firmware, etc). In my opinion, what Kinesis SHOULD have done.

***HINT*** Maybe see if the Freestyle ergo add-ons would work with what your separated keyboard might turn out to be?

Your keyboard is very appealing to me, separating would leave it virtually beyond compare (my opinion). I believe the embedded layouts are really the way to go, rather than many more physical keys (to a degree). I can see it being an integrated laptop keyboard easily.

appie747 · 17 May 2011, 00:58

sordna wrote:150 vs 350 euros? That huge difference doesn't make sense, I would look for another dealer. In North America, fentek-ind.com for example sells the Kinesis for $269 (shipping is free). The TE is $199 + expensive shipping, so the cost difference is minimal.

I'll look into that Fentek offer! Thanks.

sordna · 21 May 2011, 00:14

: Just unboxed my brand new Kinesis Advantage LF (Linear Feel); advantage_LF.jpg (649.27 KiB) Viewed 9266 times

You might want to contact Kinesis directly of you are interested in soft linear switches instead of the default cherry MX Browns (soft tactile).

Back in March, I asked Kinesis if they could make a model with red cherry switches. They listened, ordered switches from Germany, made keyboard labels, etc, and 2 months later I have the keyboard in my hands. And I even chose UPS ground shipping! Now that's a REAL company,
and a REALLY ergonomic keyboard.

webwit · 21 May 2011, 01:15

Great service! I think this keyboard is much better than the Truly Ergonomic, still a pity it isn't split. The red switches seem much more suited to a keyboard like this than an ordinary keyboard.

sordna · 21 May 2011, 01:25

Yes. Especially since the Kinesis has a configurable audible click (tiny loudspeaker), this works really nice in combination with the linear switches. You get the audible feedback, and the key stroke remains smooth as butter.

I too wish there was a split keyboard with non-staggered layout. The uTron is the only thing close. Of course, there are a few people that have cut their Kinesis in half... maybe I'll try it on my older white one

By the way, now that Kinesis has a batch of red MX cherry switches, whoever orders the Advantage LF next will get it in a few days. I would hurry before they run out! They charge slightly higher since it's a special order: $325.

Input Nirvana · 21 May 2011, 07:12

Neat! Pretty cool to have a custom keyboard configured BY THE MANUFACTURER.

Thank you for sharing that.
I really wish I could try different switches on my Kinesis Advantages. I love the keyboard, but now I'm wondering if a switch change would make me happier (I don't have any particular complaints with the browns).

Your comparison thoughts and the idea/reasons that went into you asking for it would be appreciated.

sordna · 21 May 2011, 07:39

They didn't exactly make a custom keyboard for me. They liked the idea, and made it into a specal order model that anyone can get. They even made labels for the new model, ie in the LED area (you can see it in the photo) it says: MPC USB/LF.

By the way, I'm grateful to both Deskthority and Geekhack, I first found out about the red switch (and their part number) from Geekhack, and I found out from Deskthority that the switch (which was discontinued) resumed production. I was always dreaming of a lighter feel switch than my browns.

Regarding the switches: I don't like browns very much, it's a personal opinion. They are too vague, the tactile point doesn't exactly correspond to the key registering, if you type fast you can't notice the tactile point anyway (the switch just feels gritty to me, especially on the older PS/2 Kinesis I have). If you type slow, it interferes with the stroke and requires more force from your fingers to overcome it.

So I decided I don't need the tactility and the baggage that comes with it; the Kinesis audible click (at the precise point the key registers) gives me all the feedback I need to avoid bottoming out. Of course YMMV, some people do better with tactile switches.

The reds feel smooth all the way, whether you're hitting the keys fast or slow. It feels easier to my hands.

Anyway, Kinesis sent me an email today, saying they sell replacement keywells with red switches (without keycaps) for $90 a pair, but you need to contact tech@kinesis.com and provide your serial number, so they use the appropriate ribbon cable. You could by 1 keywell at $45, that's a cheap way to try reds on one of your Kinesis

Input Nirvana · 21 May 2011, 07:57

Thanks for the helpful info.
Interesting about the keywells, then it's just the thumb keys, if they are even needed to be replaced. Personally, I would need to try out the various switches before I made the change...I don't have any instinct whether or not I want more clicky or more linear (lack of experience/no real complaints). I note that Maltron uses blacks. I've now seen these Kinesis boards with brown, blue, and reds. With the extensive mods I'm doing on 2 of these boards I've split, a possible switch change is virtually nothing in added workload. Food for thought.

Findecanor · 21 May 2011, 21:26

input nirvana wrote:
Findecanor wrote: Myself, I have finally decided on the layout for a split ergo keyboard that I am going to build. I am going to make it a middle-way between the M-system layout, the µTron and the Maltron. Slight curve and a slightly dished 3D-shape.
Any renderings yet or---?

So far, I have mostly been playing around with mock-ups of the right half's main area by sticking key caps into modelling clay.

Each half's main area will be built on an ordinary flat circuit board, with key caps of different heights for different fingers. I think that a completely parallel key-stroke angle would be best for all fingers in almost all cases.
Each half will be angled 20°. All modifiers will go on thumb keys that I have not got around to sculpting yet.
I have been thinking of making the key caps by gluing empty caps onto stems with different spacers inside.

Input Nirvana · 21 May 2011, 21:33

The flat pcb and the different height/angled keys...interesting thought, potentially a ground breaker (no curved components like Maltron/Kinesis...do you feel you will be able to have enough of a curve in the keywells? I ask because as I look at my Kinesis, it would be tough to replicate with just the curve from the keys only.

Findecanor · 22 May 2011, 02:35

input nirvana wrote:The flat pcb and the different height/angled keys...interesting thought, potentially a ground breaker (no curved components like Maltron/Kinesis...do you feel you will be able to have enough of a curve in the keywells? I ask because as I look at my Kinesis, it would be tough to replicate with just the curve from the keys only.

It's a good question. The idea is that the slight vertical staggering should compensate for the differences in height not being as large as on a Maltron or Kinesis. I am more afraid that the highest keys (who are twice as high as the 'K' key) could be too wobbly or too acutely angled.

Input Nirvana · 22 May 2011, 03:09

The very tall keys would be a concern of mine. I can see that being a possible issue.

Ascaii · 22 May 2011, 08:41

wont the short keys have some serious impact on the length of key travel? I think it would annoy me to have to push different keys farther then others.

Findecanor · 22 May 2011, 20:28

Key travel is the same for all keys.

sordna · 28 May 2011, 05:31

Truly Ergonomic changed the delivery date again. According to their website, they pushed it further out, this time to July, and that's for pre-orders! I also read somewhere that they will add dip switches to configure it for Mac/Windows/etc. This probably means the keyboard is still under development and far from shipping any time soon.

Jim66 · 04 Jun 2011, 15:43

sordna wrote:Truly Ergonomic changed the delivery date again. According to their website, they pushed it further out, this time to July, and that's for pre-orders! I also read somewhere that they will add dip switches to configure it for Mac/Windows/etc. This probably means the keyboard is still under development and far from shipping any time soon.

I can't see the TE making it in 2011.

Truly stinky customer communication.

webwit · 04 Jun 2011, 15:51

I like how he has some new excuse/carrot on a stick each iteration, like a pyramid scheme, and that he manages to blame "manufacturing hurdles which were out of our control". He is a pathological liar.

Jim66 · 04 Jun 2011, 21:12

This is the thing that gets me. I'm sure it has been discussed at length on here (and GH), but it is his complete lack of respect for the people who are in effect financing this keyboard (again without explicitly telling them they were at the beginning).

Purely because he can't respond to emails honestly and timely I won't be buying one (that and I don't really like the layout).