and then there's the mental aspect of looking directly at what you want to see; 'mental focus'

That's not a chiclet keyboard, this is a chiclet keyboard

(Till some joker makes one out of actual Chiclets.)


As a former ThinkPad user, I don't mind the change of key shapes too much. Moving Home/End away from PgUp/PgDn is kind of stupid. But at least they're still pressable with one hand (cue jokes).

Bought a Thinkpad to train on pen testing for no other reason than their reputation on quality build and keyboard. I am a Macbook user through and through otherwise. Have to say I am rather underwhelmed. The chicklet keyboard is not as good as the on one the MBPs (and even that I can only just tolerate) and the build quality is poor in comparison.

I should have gone for a T or an X but even then if they are moving towards chicklet keyboards all around my joy wouldn't have lasted long. Might have to jump on a T430 when they come out seems they still have non chicklet keyboards.

Well you get what you pay for, the x-series build quality (chassis strength ect...) is fantastic.

Jim66 wrote:Well you get what you pay for, the x-series build quality (chassis strength ect...) is fantastic.

I owned an X60s, now I own an X201, and I could work with an X31. The X31 was the best, the X201 is the worst. Don't get me wrong, if I were to compare it with any other laptop it would range among the best, but there definitely is a difference. In fact, I can't stand my X201's keyboard, because it feels too mushy.

I've had a lot of IBM / lenovo laptops in the past: a20 / a20m / a30 / X200 / X201 / X220. The keyboards have been getting worse since lenovo took over. In my opinion that's simply because lenovo is a Chinese company and in China the most important thing is money / cost. I know this since I've lived in China for nearly 5 years and have witnessed this and heard countless stories from friends / colleagues about this problem. The engineers and designers will get a big pat on the back for reducing production costs. Through every generation of a product they may use a slightly cheaper material for some component, reduce the thickness of that material, increase tolerances to reduce QC fails and create generic components that can be re-used across product lines. This might only cause a slight difference between each generation of a product, but when comparing quality from the latest product (e.g. X220) to a product a couple of generations before (e.g. X200), there is a marked difference.

The problem is that each new model in a product line sets the new benchmark, and that benchmark reflects a marginally lower quality than the previous generation. Over multiple generations we get downwards quality creep. In other industries in China this downwards creep has frequently led to disastrous consequences. E.g. a bridge collapsed killing lots of people because the concrete mix used too much filler (to reduce cost), milk being cut with just a bit too much melamine powder (which falsely increases protein test results), resulting in dead babies, industrial alcohol being used make fake vodka and so on. Obviously a slightly worse keyboard / laptop is not as serious as those other examples, but you get the idea.

Had a T60 before, tried an X220 and use an E320 now. I found both types of keyboard equally unpalatable. The 'proper' Thinkpad keyboard had longer travel but was mushier, whereas the chiclet as with most of them seem a bit more tactile but has less travel and flatter keys.

E320's keyboard is nothing to write home about, just like any keyboard that activates at the end of the key travel.

doneganm wrote:The problem is that each new model in a product line sets the new benchmark, and that benchmark reflects a marginally lower quality than the previous generation. Over multiple generations we get downwards quality creep. In other industries in China this downwards creep has frequently led to disastrous consequences. E.g. a bridge collapsed killing lots of people because the concrete mix used too much filler (to reduce cost), milk being cut with just a bit too much melamine powder (which falsely increases protein test results), resulting in dead babies, industrial alcohol being used make fake vodka and so on. Obviously a slightly worse keyboard / laptop is not as serious as those other examples, but you get the idea.

I don’t think that’s confined just to Lenovo: I think it’s affecting *all* computer manufacturers. PC laptops are not what they once were.

Apple keyboards keep getting better.

ripster wrote:Apple keyboards keep getting better.

If your start point is 1998, then absolutely. If you start earlier, then absolutely not.

doneganm wrote:I've had a lot of IBM / lenovo laptops in the past: a20 / a20m / a30 / X200 / X201 / X220. The keyboards have been getting worse since lenovo took over. In my opinion that's simply because lenovo is a Chinese company and in China the most important thing is money / cost. I know this since I've lived in China for nearly 5 years and have witnessed this and heard countless stories from friends / colleagues about this problem. The engineers and designers will get a big pat on the back for reducing production costs. Through every generation of a product they may use a slightly cheaper material for some component, reduce the thickness of that material, increase tolerances to reduce QC fails and create generic components that can be re-used across product lines. This might only cause a slight difference between each generation of a product, but when comparing quality from the latest product (e.g. X220) to a product a couple of generations before (e.g. X200), there is a marked difference.

The problem is that each new model in a product line sets the new benchmark, and that benchmark reflects a marginally lower quality than the previous generation. Over multiple generations we get downwards quality creep. In other industries in China this downwards creep has frequently led to disastrous consequences. E.g. a bridge collapsed killing lots of people because the concrete mix used too much filler (to reduce cost), milk being cut with just a bit too much melamine powder (which falsely increases protein test results), resulting in dead babies, industrial alcohol being used make fake vodka and so on. Obviously a slightly worse keyboard / laptop is not as serious as those other examples, but you get the idea.

The X220, T420, T520, W520 had better keyboard and style than any American, Japanese and European (the last one being a joke) producer at that time.

The Chinese were the last to give in to the shit quality and low price desired by American, Japanese and European crap-consumers. It was not what they wanted, it was what you wanted.