Very light enter key on Realforce all-45g EK edition?

Kurk · 14 Dec 2013, 21:02

I've acquired a second-hand Realforce all-45g EK edition (87ub-ek45, se19e0). Here's the thing: the enter key, and only the enter key, requires much less force than any other key to depress.
Are there any other all-45g Realforce owners that did notice the same?

I know that there is a certain tolerance among Topre domes. But in this case it's only the enter key and the effect is quite noticeable. The tactile bump of that key has almost disappeared. It feels like the enter key on a variable weight board.
The previous owner only used that board for a month or so and it looks as good as new, so I don't think that heavy use is the culprit.

So, is this intentional?

Edit: apparently there are other keys that are way too light as well. Vide infra.

czarek · 16 Dec 2013, 10:33

No, it's +/- 15G weight variation tolerance on Topre switches / board. I call this rubbish. Inconsistency in sound / feel is the killer for me in any keyboards. Even if it's made out of pure casted gold.

Jmneuv · 16 Dec 2013, 10:42

Is the enter key on a separate rubber sheet? I'd expect so, seeing that it's so much off. Maybe you could do a group buy for gutting a donor RF board, i think there would be enough interest.

002 · 16 Dec 2013, 10:45

Have you measured it with the StevenCheeseburgerOmeter?
I'd be interested to know just how close it is to 45g. Even though Topre do quote quite a large margin for error as czarek says, in my experience it's usually closer to 5g variance.

kbdfr · 16 Dec 2013, 10:50

czarek wrote:No, it's +/- 15G weight variation tolerance on Topre switches / board. […]

Sounds like if Topre were rubberdomes

Muirium · 16 Dec 2013, 10:55

That's the kicker. They are domes, of course. Proof that domes aren't inherently bad, but can be done just right. Funny how it's a punchline!

Anyway, this particular dome wants measuring. It's unlike Topre to feel uneven.

kbdfr · 16 Dec 2013, 11:22

Muirium wrote:That's the kicker. They are domes, of course. Proof that domes aren't inherently bad, but can be done just right. Funny how it's a punchline!

Anyway, this particular dome wants measuring. It's unlike Topre to feel uneven.

I know they are domes, of course, that was pure irony

Muirium · 16 Dec 2013, 11:30

Naturally. (It can be tricky to indicate I know that you know that I know that you know, y'know…)

Topres are usually quite excellent at handling wear. 002's got some heavily used specimens that would put any other dome to shame. So this oddball key is a true outlier, however it came about.

mj45 · 16 Dec 2013, 14:14

If you don't mind taking it apart you could switch with a stiffer less used dome (maybe insert or whatnot) they are not too hard to disassemble and swap.

Kurk · 16 Dec 2013, 17:27

002 wrote:Have you measured it with the StevenCheeseburgerOmeter?
....

The what-o-meter? Does it involve stacking currency on that key?

002 · 16 Dec 2013, 21:44

Yep

Should be pretty easy to do with the extra surface area.

Kurk · 16 Dec 2013, 23:49

Ok, I did some coin stacking. I used 2-Eurocent coins which are rated at 3.06 g according to one source and 3.1 g according to wikipedia. I wrote down the numbers as approximate averages. A number of 15 coin units would be spot on. Allow +/-3 for tolerance (that's actually +/- 20%). That means that all figures should be between and including 12 and 18.
Behold the (incomplete) activation weight map of my Realforce. Quite some deviation in there. The enter key is indeed way off and so are =+ and both Alt keys.

: Activation weight in 2-Eurocent units.; Realforce all 45g EK edition activation force map v01.png (34.05 KiB) Viewed 6354 times

Muirium · 17 Dec 2013, 00:17

That's a lot more variation than I'd expect. It'd bother me on both Alts as much as Return, because I use those continuously for keyboard shortcuts as Command keys.

Your map's looking practically like a standard variable weight Topre, with the tough stuff in the middle.

Kurk · 18 Dec 2013, 23:43

Here's my updated force map. The alpha block is really homogeneous and clearly heavier than 45 g. To the sides, the required forces are much lower and in some cases way too low.
The more I use this keyboard the more I start to like Topre switches. But at the same time I'm getting increasingly annoyed by the too light enter and also the rather heavy A on the left.

BTW, I found some other threads about this problem:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36614.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=20894.0
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/tron-help-t645.html

gorothobarskyr · 19 Dec 2013, 07:13

This is actually likely intentional on Topre's part. Having variable force allows for a more even typing feel as it distributes the required force proportionally, allowing weaker fingers to depress keys without strain.

Topre has very high manufacturing standards, which is why they command a premium price tag.

Kurk · 19 Dec 2013, 08:08

Topre indeed sells variable force keyboards ("ergonomically weighted"). I've tried one and I did not like it; mainly because I've found the pinky keys being too light.
That's why I've bought an uniformly-weighted Realforce and it's actually worse.

The way it is cannot really be intentional. You only have to breathe over enter and it activates while the left pinky has some heavy work to do with A and Z.

matt3o · 19 Dec 2013, 08:21

this is clearly not intentional. You can't have such a variation. I have a 55gr which is 55 all over the matrix. A slight variation in weight is understood but not from 61 to 27 grams!

Also. If you search for the internals of a realforce you'll notice that all the mixed-weight keys are on a membrane of their own. Alphas are split in two groups, ENTER is on its own membrane, and so it is the '" key, .- and += are together like {[ and [}, backspace is alone, like alt, ctrl, win. If you look closely there's a pattern here that resembles your messed up matrix. In my very humble opinion they just mixed up the membranes in production.

Edit: variable weight Topre has a different pattern than yours, so it's not even that they gave you a variable weight keyboard by mistake.

002 · 19 Dec 2013, 10:44

This does seem extreme to me...
Let me see what I can do

Kurk · 19 Dec 2013, 11:02

I will contact Elitekeyoards about it. I know that their support is for US-sales only but I'm curious about how they see this.

@002: you've got my attention

002 · 19 Dec 2013, 11:08

I'm guessing you might get a line about it being a second-hand purchase and who knows what the previous guy did and blah blah blah. You never know though. For all the negative comments EK gets, I have to say that he was very helpful when I had issues with my Filco many moons ago.

002 · 02 Jan 2014, 01:29

I asked about your keyboard and got a response (have PM'ed you, Kurk). For anyone else interested, the general gist of it is that there might be something wrong with the domes, but they had some concerns about the accuracy of the measurement method. I think that because there is only one key that is falling outside of their quoted allowable variance, it's probably not going to go very far

matt3o · 02 Jan 2014, 09:23

great. spend $250 and get low quality keyboard and shit support. seems legit.

czarek · 04 Jan 2014, 16:31

It's rubber, as awesome as it is, it's still rubber so don't expect miracles, and be prepared for inconsistency...

Kurk · 06 Jan 2014, 12:52

No reason why rubber should be more inconsistent than metal springs. It's all about the production process and quality control.
From what I understood from Brian at EK, there were some problems with earlier all-45g Realforces. Maybe mine is one of them.

matt3o · 06 Jan 2014, 13:01

did you manage to get it changed?

Kurk · 07 Jan 2014, 09:38

Communication with EK in progress. But it's going s...l...o...w...l...y.

adhoc · 07 Jan 2014, 10:16

Yeh, Brian usually takes a week to answer any of my e-mails.

Kurk · 23 Feb 2014, 21:47

Update with good news!
Brian from Elitekeyboards offered to service/replace my keyboard if I would take care of two-way shipping. Naturally I agreed. So I sent my Realforce to EK at the end of January. Approximately three weeks something later I received a parcel from EK with a brand new keyboard

Even better, the return shipment was for free

Again, thank you Brian for taking care of my complaints and extending the warranty across the US borders.

Anyway, the new Realforce immediately felt much more uniform. Of course, I've stacked some coins on the keycaps to show you. Indeed, look at the picture, it's such a difference.

Finally, I am experiencing oneness with cup rubber!

002 · 23 Feb 2014, 21:51

That looks much more consistent

Glad to see you got it all sorted out.