The Oracle Answers

seebart · 12 Nov 2014, 19:53

yes the Realforce I had was variable-weight. I did like it, just not enough to keep it. I´d like to try a all-55g RF. Sounds like you have a imrpressive collection already!

crunch · 13 Nov 2014, 23:13

Hi. I have only tried a Dell AT102 with black Alps, how different is a Matias quiet Alps?

Muirium · 13 Nov 2014, 23:30

Matias has some good recordings:

http://www.matias.ca/miniquietpro/pc/

I've only a few loose switches, but that reduced sound is credible. Other damped Alps switches really are very quiet, like my Apple Extended Keyboard II. (Anyone who considers that a "clicky" keyboard hasn't tried IBM or most others!)

Daniel Beardsmore · 14 Nov 2014, 00:26

crunch wrote: ↑Hi. I have only tried a Dell AT102 with black Alps, how different is a Matias quiet Alps?

Sound: I cannot say for certain, as I've not swapped the switches between keyboards; the sound is highly dependent on the keyboard. Matias "quiet click" switches in a Matias Quiet Pro are around the same sound level as an average rubber dome. They're not virtually silent like scissor, but they're quiet enough that you don't hear someone typing on them as they're below the conscious noise level. They're perfect for use in an office.

Feel: Matias "quiet click" is significantly lighter in force than the switches in my NIB AT102. Bamboo black Alps (as in the AT102) are fairly stiff, and they feel weird; they have a double tactile curve, where after you pass the main tactile peak, you hit a second, smaller one. Simplified Alps switches feel the same, though Matias's switches aren't as bad.

Matias "quiet click" switches in my experience (they may have been improved since) felt gritty and juddery, but they combined the comfortable weight of blue Alps and Cherry MX with a good strong tactile force curve. I adapted to them instantly and found them to have a "Goldilocks" weight: neither too light, nor too heavy. I just didn't enjoy the obvious problems with friction that they suffered from. I found it odd how bad they felt considering the effort Matias went to over them, even down to foregoing pigmentation in the slider to avoid friction. Matias switches also have a bit of that double tactile peak as they're basically the same design as simplified Alps. I also don't know whether the friction feeling fades with time, as I gave that keyboard a colleague; currently it's sat unused on a spare desk.

Bamboo black Alps though is not a good switch either — too stiff and too little tactility. They're basically a really lumpy linear. I'd love to try pine black Alps for a comparison, but those are extremely rare. I didn't think much of salmon Alps either, although I never gave them a proper test.

crunch · 14 Nov 2014, 17:25

Thanks for that detailed explanation/information. I quite liked the AT102 but it was a bit big and noisy so I'm considering trying out a Matias Mini Quiet Pro.

Hypersphere · 14 Nov 2014, 19:19

crunch wrote: ↑Thanks for that detailed explanation/information. I quite liked the AT102 but it was a bit big and noisy so I'm considering trying out a Matias Mini Quiet Pro.

I rather like Matias switches, especially the tactile/clicky ones, and I like the layout of the Mini Tactile Pro and Mini Quiet Pro. However, I don't like the styling and materials choices of these keyboards.

Matias is currently organizing a Group Buy for a new 60% design. It is controversial, but it offers a chance to have Matias switches in a 60% form factor.

Daniel Beardsmore · 14 Nov 2014, 22:01

crunch wrote: ↑Thanks for that detailed explanation/information. I quite liked the AT102 but it was a bit big and noisy so I'm considering trying out a Matias Mini Quiet Pro.

My AT102W (which is what I meant earlier) is certainly louder than its Filco equivalent (Majestouch with MX brown) but it's got a nice sound.

typhson · 19 Nov 2014, 13:45

Oh mighty Oracle,

After many years of letting my brother use my Filco TKL, I have to take it back from him and don't want to him left with only his 2.30$ MS-Tech Rubberdome, but with an helpful advise.
It should be cheap as fuark, so I don't want to make too many restrictions:

• TKL or an other even smaller Layout (F-Keys are required though)
• ANSI-Shift (It don't really matter if with J-Ret or not)
• real arrow keys (Noppoo Choc Mini design would be fine)
• Browns or Blues
• Of course as cheap as possible

Laser · 19 Nov 2014, 13:52

The Oracle answers: perhaps a WTB post in the marketplace section?

Muirium · 19 Nov 2014, 17:00

typhson wrote: ↑Noppoo Choc Mini

The Keyboard Oracle wrote:The Answer Lies Within The Question

Something like that anyway…

ماء · 24 Nov 2014, 18:12

Can i get cherry spring in retail shop anywhere?

PaiCrai · 24 Nov 2014, 21:14

I found someone selling this, the problem is they live about 7-8 hours away at least

should i go for it?

crunch · 27 Nov 2014, 22:20

What could this be, he says tactile, clicky keyboard.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/135914-001-Co ... 0103920490

Muirium · 27 Nov 2014, 22:26

Wow. Worst picture I've seen for a $136.34 keyboard…

Even less informative than stock art. The layout's oldschool, but we're staring deep into a Rorschach blot…

crunch · 27 Nov 2014, 22:30

Just found this, seems to be the same keyboard and a lot cheaper.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/COMPAQ-135914 ... 35c42cddc0

chzel · 27 Nov 2014, 22:33

And it has 3 offers! One from 2009!
If you check their other items, you will see that they specialize in crappy photography!

Hypersphere · 27 Nov 2014, 22:34

Muirium wrote: ↑Wow. Worst picture I've seen for a $136.34 keyboard…

Spoiler:
Even less informative than stock art. The layout's oldschool, but we're staring deep into a Rorschach blot…

Keyboard impressionism.

andrewjoy · 28 Nov 2014, 10:59

oh wise and wonderful oracle

I have a friend who is looking into getting into the mechanical keyboard world

where would i find a standard layout ansi prefer but iso acceptable liner cherry (prefer mx red) for less than 100 GBP

i suggested a filco ( ANSI with red) but its just a little bit above what he wants to spend now if his G11 was to break i think he would go for it but to convince him to switch i want something a little cheaper

reason i want standard ansi: it its easy to get replacement caps for it and i want to get him a set of thick dyesub PBT as a gift one day

Muirium · 28 Nov 2014, 14:44

If his G11 was to break, you say? Sounds like you need a hammer and a Filco!

I was going to congratulate him on favouring ANSI, even as a newb, but I see you're the one with an eye on later caps upgrades. ANSI is different enough that normals can notice the difference. Not always, but sometimes. Depends where they habitually hit Return…

To be honest, I don't exactly keep a close eye on cheap keyboards. Thought of a CM QFR? Does he ever use his numpad? And, um… does he like red?

http://deskthority.net/post195997.html#p195997

The safe option would indeed be a Filco, a Ducky or a CM. All right at the high end of his budget.

andrewjoy · 28 Nov 2014, 15:26

a decent tactile would cost more as browns are nasty, never tried clears so cannot recommend them ( i don't recommend a switch i have not used)

i don't think he likes it to click he always hated my blues over Skype does not mind the sound of my ibm however

so the one that is the closest to a rubber done is red or possibly black but again i have not tried black

yet

yes he uses the numbered ( accountant)

ansi is my idea , he is the type of person who hates this modern throw away society so i told him that he can get new caps if they wear out and the board will last him longer and he was happy with that

whats going on with leopold nowadays ? where they not always cheaper than filco ?

Halvar · 28 Nov 2014, 16:08

Rubber domes aren't linear at all, they have a tactile bump (that has nothing to do with the actuation point of course), so reds aren't like rubber domes at all, and due to their very low actuation force I would not recommmend them to a "mech newbie", except maybe for gaming. MX Clears are much more similar to rubber domes.

Muirium · 28 Nov 2014, 16:27

Hmm.

I'd give the guy a tour of your collection and see what he likes. Domes are indeed completely different to linear MX, but MX black is the accountant's best friend! Well, if Tipro etc. are right…

IBM has the extra advantage of being cheaper for a full size than an equivalently well built MX board, plus replacement caps are available new too. But only if he likes them in person. Skype can lie! I find my brother's MacBook keyboard incessantly loud when his external mic picks it up, as the high pitch clatter of its tiny caps is overstated in the audio. Linears and Topres are much more melodious for broadcasting!

jaunedeau · 28 Nov 2014, 19:36

Hi Oracle

I'm looking for a keyboardwith mx brown switch. I don't need macros, leds, weather information... I just want something to type text, and play from time to time.

I want the best possible quality (as in "feel good" and "last forever, "you can type 8 hours a day on it") keyboard I can buy shipped to europe for MAX 199€ (this is really the maximum price, if there is something good in the 100-150€ price range, I don't need to pay more)

Nice to have include :
-TKL if it has a left-hand key to switch right hand letters to keypad
-Matrix keyboard
-Keyboard in two halves for each hand

But I don't really expect to find the two last features in a sub 200€ keyboard

Thank,
John.

macmakkara · 28 Nov 2014, 19:54

Not oracle here but you can get assembled ergodox with browns from https://falbatech.pl assembled and shipped 199,60€
That goes 60 cents over your max budget.

Also there might be something good in that pricerange that i don´t know.

Muirium · 28 Nov 2014, 20:46

The ErgoDox is a fascinating board, but to be fair I've heard a few too many reliability problems with them. As you emphasised build quality and lifespan over a split body, I would consider something more mainstream like a Filco, Ducky or maybe CM TKL. Shipping tends to have a big impact on price. It would help to know where you are.

seebart · 29 Nov 2014, 10:33

what your looking for sounds like my Filco Majestouch John. Check it out if you haven't done so yet!

Hypersphere · 29 Nov 2014, 16:25

@jaunedeau,

Could you please elaborate on what you had in mind with this statement?"

"Nice to have include :
-TKL if it has a left-hand key to switch right hand letters to keypad"

Are you referring to an embedded numeric keypad in a TKL? If so, there are few keyboards with this feature. In vintage boards, the IBM SSK can do this, but SSKs are a bit difficult to find, and they tend to be expensive. A modern keyboard that has this feature is the Topre Realforce 87u, but if you are in Europe, I understand that these can be difficult to source and they are expensive (but not quite as much as an IBM SSK in excellent condition). I am not aware of TKL keyboards with this feature that have Cherry mx switches.

If you do not care about an embedded keypad in a TKL, or if you want a full-size keyboard, Filco keyboards are excellent. For more bells and whistles (or at least LEDs), there is Ducky. The CM Quickfire Stealth is also good.

Recently, I purchased a WASD V2 87 "Barebones" keyboard with mx browns from WASD keyboards. This is a good value if you intend to put your own keycaps on the keyboard. The "barebones" moniker indicates that it ships with no keycaps, which saves you 40 USD with mx browns. However, if you are in Europe, you would be paying shipping costs from the US and I suppose that customs/duty charges would apply as well.

Lpwl · 30 Nov 2014, 21:44

Hypersphere wrote: ↑@jaunedeau,
[...] The CM Quickfire Stealth is also good.

I think the CM Quickfire Stealth can't be bought directly in Europe because "Filco holds the patent for front printed keycaps in EU ONLY".

(source)

Hypersphere · 30 Nov 2014, 22:25

The CM QFS also has the annoying "feature" of a hardwired Fn key that cannot be readily reassigned by the end user. This is not an issue with the Filco, which has a Menu key that I remap as Fn. The WASD and Kul have DIP switch settings for remapping Fn. However, the Kul has Cherry stabilizers; I prefer the Costar-type stabilizers as found on the Filco and WASD keyboards.

jaunedeau · 01 Dec 2014, 11:42

> Shipping tends to have a big impact on price. It would help to know where you are.

I'm in France

> what your looking for sounds like my Filco Majestouch

I hade a look a some reviews, it is on my list !

>Could you please elaborate on what you had in mind with this statement?"
>"TKL if it has a left-hand key to switch right hand letters to keypad"

Most of the time, the keypad is just annoying to me (just prevent me from having a good position for the mouse). but once or twice a week, I will do some excel / calculator, typing numbers for 10-30 minutes, and then I use the keypad. One of my old laptop had a "Fn" key, on the left hand, and when you kept it down the uio, jkl and ,;: keys (azerty layout) turned into a keypad. That suits my needs. Also a toogle key would do.
I guess that some of those SMT32 based keyboard would do that, or I could modify the firmware miself if there is some with available open sourced firmware

>For more bells and whistles (or at least LEDs)

I really don't need leds (I just spent year learning not to look at keys when I type

). On the other hand, all the open or hacked firmware I've seen were for those leds or leds+screen keyboards (and I may need one to add the keypad)

>I purchased a WASD V2 87 "Barebones" keyboard with mx browns from WASD keyboards
>...
>you would be paying shipping costs from the US and I suppose that customs/duty charges would apply as well

Reading your suggestiong, on my list I have :

-WASD C2 -> 201€ (with taxes and shipping, a bit less if I buy keycap on aliexpress)
-Filco FKBN105M/FRB2 Majestouch 2 -> 170€
-Ducky Keyboard DK9087 -> 154€
-CM quick fire tk/tk stealth/rapid/rapid-i -> 90-120€*
-KBT Pure Pro -> 110€
-Duky Channel DK2108 -> 100€ (seems to be a cheaper verison without leds, ok with me if quality is good, but TKL/2087 not available for cheap here)

* Apprently the tk has lesser built quality (no steel plate, one side pcb), and the rapid-i has a better microcontroler (and customisable firmware), but I don't know if the quality/feeling is the same with the three keyboards

=>How would those keyboard compare with respect to durability and feeling ?

The CM QF TK seems to be an interesting option, it has the keypad but let me have the mouse close to me, and is the cheapest of all. But what about the quality and "feeling" ?

Thank you,
John.