Keyboards for Alps Keycaps Dye Sub PBT or Doubleshot ABS?

Hypersphere · 21 Dec 2014, 06:07

@Daniel Beardsmore: Thanks for the spacebar info. The spacebar I harvested from a Dell AT101W seems to have the receptacles for the stabilizer inserts a bit too close together for the stabilizer setup on the V60, but I have not yet exhausted all possibilities.

Thus far, I have repopulated the Matias Quiet Click switches on my KBP V60 with the following:

Mods, except CapsLock = Dell AT101W. The bottom row mods have convex curvature, just like the spacebar. (gray)
Spacebar = Stock spacebar from the V60 (black)
CapsLock = Borrowed from my Ortek MCK-84 (gray)
Alphanumerics = Data General 6311 (ivory white)

The board looks reasonably good. The legends on the mods are lasered. I thought that the alphanumerics from the Data General 6311 were dye-sub PBT, but they feel extremely smooth -- not textured like most PBT caps I have used -- but they do not feel clammy like ABS. I haven't done a salt-water density test or acetone test as yet.

The V60 feels good. I like the Matias Quiet Click switches, and the wire stabilizers on the stabilized keys -- including the spacebar -- work beautifully with a crisp even response and no rattle whatsoever. However, the keycaps feel too smooth. I would like to keep searching to find some keycaps that are definitely dye-sub PBT with a bit of a pumice-like texture.

It would also be good to find some spacebars. The stock black spacebar would look fine if I could find some black blank mods, but with gray lasered mods and ivory alphas, it would be good to have a spacebar either in gray or ivory.

Nevertheless, it feels like decent progress to have located some Alps caps rather quickly, and I am enjoying the V60. I've used Karabiner for the Mac to remap it to a HHKB layout. It works better than the Poker II in this regard, because the Fn key can be reassigned and there is no Pn key. My new Fn key is on the far right of the bottom row -- not in the ideal spot to the right of a shortened Right Shift key, but close.

Daniel Beardsmore · 21 Dec 2014, 14:19

I'm a bit confused. Surely you could swap the wire, inserts and keycaps together if you needed? With Cherry stabilisers, there is indeed a requirement that the mounting posts in the keycap be in the correct place, but for "Costar" stabilisers, this isn't the case that I know of. The chief problem I guess is if the wire needs swapping, but the diameter is different and the plate inserts aren't compatible.

Hypersphere · 21 Dec 2014, 17:22

One of the spacebars I harvested is too long. Another is the correct length, but it has two additional stabilizer posts that fit into receptacles in the donor keyboard; these would have to be cut off before the spacebar could be used on the V60. There was also an additional spring from the donor board, but this would not be necessary. Other than these issues, I will check to see if the wire and inserts on the donor spacebar will work on the recipient. There was no problem at all with the other stabilized keys, as all the components were a match between the donor and recipient boards.

EDIT: I checked the stock spacebar on the V60MTS and the potential donor spacebar from the Dell AT101W. The mount spacing and stabilizer wires are different. It might be done by making a new wire. The Dell also has two additional posts that would have to be removed, but this is easily done with some wire nippers.

jacobolus · 21 Dec 2014, 23:23

Hypersphere wrote: ↑One of the spacebars I harvested is too long. Another is the correct length, but it has two additional stabilizer posts that fit into receptacles in the donor keyboard; these would have to be cut off before the spacebar could be used on the V60.

The spacebar posts on old Alps spacebars are a separate piece from the rest of the keycap. You can pull them out with pliers.

Hypersphere · 21 Dec 2014, 23:24

I've recently learned that the keyboard in the IBM 5140 "portable" computer has dye-sub PBT Alps-mount keycaps.

In addition, keyboards in at least some Zenith portables have double-shot ABS Alps-mount keycaps. Does anyone know if any of the Zeniths had dye-sub PBT Alps-mount keycaps?

Hypersphere · 21 Dec 2014, 23:28

jacobolus wrote: ↑
Hypersphere wrote: ↑One of the spacebars I harvested is too long. Another is the correct length, but it has two additional stabilizer posts that fit into receptacles in the donor keyboard; these would have to be cut off before the spacebar could be used on the V60.
The spacebar posts on old Alps spacebars are a separate piece from the rest of the keycap. You can pull them out with pliers.

Are you referring to the inserts for the stabilizer wire? These pull out rather easily. What I was referring to were additional posts (on the spacebars from the Data General 6311 or Dell AT101W) that are molded into the spacebar. If these spacebars were going to be used in a V60MTS keyboard, these molded posts would have to be removed by cutting the plastic using a Dremel or wire nippers.

gogusrl · 21 Dec 2014, 23:29

My Zenith Z-150 has dyesubs (green alps version).

Hypersphere · 22 Dec 2014, 00:26

gogusrl wrote: ↑My Zenith Z-150 has dyesubs (green alps version).

Are you referring to the Z-150 keyboard (looks rather like an IBM XT keyboard) or to the keyboard on a Z-150 portable computer?

gogusrl · 22 Dec 2014, 00:46

the XT lookalike.

details here : http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/zenit ... t9094.html

seebart · 22 Dec 2014, 11:34

so I guess this would be the thread to ask: how can I ID dyesub priting on keycaps for sure?

gogusrl · 22 Dec 2014, 12:09

The print should be a bit fuzzy (think ink on a paper towel) and should have the same texture as the rest of the cap.

seebart · 22 Dec 2014, 12:22

like this?

: IMGP7724.JPG (1005.3 KiB) Viewed 6159 times

Nuum · 22 Dec 2014, 12:49

Looks like. Aren't that Buckling Spring keycaps? If so, then yes, these are dyesubbed. Sometimes Dyesubs are a bit hard to distinguish from pad printed keycaps, but pad printing is usually used on ABS keycaps, while dyesubbing doesn't work on ABS or at least is not used on ABS, as far as I know.

002 · 22 Dec 2014, 12:53

Without making assumptions based on the keyboard, I think it's probably a little difficult to tell from that distance.
You really need an up-close look at the caps like photekq's images. For example:

Or, here are some crappy ones I took a while back, all dye-sub:
http://imgur.com/a/WxCwb

Basically, dye-sub has that inky tattoo look that is sometimes blurry around the edges, but like gogusrl points out, the same texture as the rest of the cap

Muirium · 22 Dec 2014, 12:58

Yup. Should be no sign of anything else going on. No engraving, no embossing, nothing else coated on top. Just ink that's miraculously bound inside the plastic. Which is always PBT, I'm told. As ABS melts instead of subbing in the oven!

seebart · 22 Dec 2014, 14:35

Yes that's my dusty XT. My Micro Switch caps from 1976 don't look dyesub?

Muirium · 22 Dec 2014, 14:55

Those are doubleshots. Can't dye plastic a brighter colour, only darker.

Microswitch had good taste in caps:

http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/a-hon ... t6296.html

The Round 5 mother keyboard!

Hypersphere · 22 Dec 2014, 14:56

The Micro Switch '76 caps look like double-shots.

seebart · 22 Dec 2014, 15:00

I should know all this stuff. [emoji86]
For some reason my favourite caps are still the caps on my Commodore cherry kb. I do own nicer ones though.

Hypersphere · 22 Dec 2014, 15:11

I'm finding it difficult to determine the printing method on Alps-mount keycaps I've harvested from various boards. For example, I have some very yellowed thin caps from a Data General (made by Acer) 6311 that look like dye-sub; Acer 6311/6312 were purportedly dye-sub, so perhaps these are as well. I've seen some theorizing about the possibility that PBT might be subject to yellowing if it contains certain brominated flame retardants. Likewise, I have caps from a Dell AT101W that look as if they could be dye-sub, but again, the caps have yellowed, and the documentation on this model indicates laser etching.

jacobolus · 22 Dec 2014, 20:19

Hypersphere wrote: ↑Likewise, I have caps from a Dell AT101W that look as if they could be dye-sub, but again, the caps have yellowed, and the documentation on this model indicates laser etching.

AT101W is definitely printed or lasered ABS. (I don’t remember which, and I don’t have any of these myself.)

Early editions of the AT101 (no windows keys), which were made by Alps instead of Silitek, had dyesub PBT keycaps though. (You can usually pick these out in e.g. ebay auctions by the difference in color between the spacebar and other caps.)

Hypersphere · 27 Dec 2014, 22:01

@gogusrl: Thanks for the tip about the Zenith 150 (XT-lookalike) keyboard with dye-sub PBT keycaps. This could be good for a mostly complete set of alphas and some of the mods. One issue with the XT and its lookalikes is that they have an oversized keycap for the right square bracket key "]", so that this one would have to be obtained from another source.

@jacobolus: What a great list of keyboards you provided here and on GH! I was able to find an IBM 5140 at a reasonable price, and the dye-sub PBT caps are beautiful. I have put them on my V60MTS-C.

@Mu: and @Daniel Beardsmore: Thanks for the various tips, especially about the Acer 6312/6311 boards. I don't yet have a 6311, but I just opened an NIB Acer Accufeel 6311-KW11 AT/XT board that appears to have dye-sub PBT caps.The Accufeel was only 30 USD shipped and the 6311 on its way was only 16 USD plus 11 USD for shipping.

BTW, the Acer 6311-KW11 feels rather good to type on. It has black tactile/clicky Acer switches and the caps have a slight pumice texture that I like. The case feels light and flimsy, but for someone looking for a decent full-size mechanical keyboard, this is a good deal.

Muirium · 27 Dec 2014, 22:12

My Acer 6312 has an excellent feel to its caps. Pumice is the word. They aren't so much to look at, but they even leave Granite to shame for that texture. They feel like slate or some other material more than plastic.

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Acer_6312#A ... _UK_Layout

The keyboard is okay — definitely deserves the "semi-mechanical" classification — but the rollover is abysmal and I couldn't advise actually using one of these! I tried, but it seems 2KRO and will quickly ghost no matter what you're doing.

Hypersphere · 27 Dec 2014, 22:24

@Mu: I notice that the keycap stem from your Acer 6312 looks like the caps I took from a General Data (Acer-made) 6311 keyboard. However, the caps on my new Acer 6311-KW11 look like regular Alps-mount stems -- they have a small rectangular opening in the stem instead of two circular holes.

Hypersphere · 02 Jan 2015, 23:04

Does anyone know what type switches and keycaps were used in the following keyboards?

NEC APC-H410E

NEC APC-H410EA

NEC APC-H412

NEC KB-6923

NEC ProSpeed Notebook Mitsumi 20890429

In addition, the Nan Tan NTC KB-6251EA has white Alps switches, but I do not know what kind of keycaps.

Daniel Beardsmore · 02 Jan 2015, 23:13

Nan Tan: [wiki]NTC KB-6251[/wiki] — largely pad printed, as documented.

Not what you asked for, but interesting nonetheless: NEC APC-H4120 has thick grey doubleshots: http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/22129 — terrible-looking arrows though.

Not much on the wiki about NEC though.

Hypersphere · 02 Jan 2015, 23:44

@Daniel Beardsmore: Thanks. Looks like some of the Nan Tan caps were double-shots, but as you pointed out, most are pad-printed, so buying would be risky unless there is a pic of the inverted keycap.

The NEC APC-H4120 apparently has its own (NEC) switches, but I am looking for Alps-mount switches.

Daniel Beardsmore · 03 Jan 2015, 00:45

NEC APC series use NEC switches, which use their proprietary mount.

I am not aware that Mitsumi have ever made an Alps mount switch.

Hypersphere · 03 Jan 2015, 01:04

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑NEC APC series use NEC switches, which use their proprietary mount.

I am not aware that Mitsumi have ever made an Alps mount switch.

Thanks. This is good to know.

Matias expects to have keycaps available on its website, possibly as early as next week. In the meantime, keycaps can be ordered by emailing barb@matias.ca.

+ Full set for the Matias Quiet Pro, 50 USD plus shipping and applicable taxes.
+ 6.25x spacebars, black or white, 5 USD + shipping/taxes.
+ Individual 1.00x, 1.00 USD + shipping/taxes.
+ Bottom-row 1.25x mod keycap; other larger than 1.00x keycaps, 2.00 USD + shipping/taxes.
+ Keycaps with legends for PC only, no Mac-specific caps sold separately.
+ Blanks available in black or white.
+ Keycaps for the Matias 60 can be ordered separately from the Matias 60 site, but shipping could take 18 months.
+ All caps are ABS, except bottom-row for Matias 60, which are PBT.
+ Stabilizer wires and inserts are not available yet, but should be available in about a month.

For my Matias-switch V60 keyboards, I have ordered black blank mods and spacebars from Matias, and I will source dye-sub PBT alpha and number caps from vintage Alps-switch keyboards, such as IBM 5140, Acer 6311, or others that might be out in the wild. I am grateful to the Alps experts on DT and GH who have pointed out various sources for good Alps-mount keycaps that will work on Matias switches.

Daniel Beardsmore · 03 Jan 2015, 01:22

Judging by the state of the keycaps that came with my Tactile Pro for PC, I'm not enthused. I'd rather we get Tai-Hao caps as at least Tai-Hao can do legends properly most of the time, and since it's an ABS vs ABS choice, Matias don't win there either (where they could be selling stylish dark grey PBT with dye-sub legends or PBT blanks). Tai-Hao's double-shot legends won't stain either.