The Oracle Answers

Laser · 06 Dec 2014, 13:18

I'd like to ask the mighty Oracle (database?), fountain of past and future knowledge, god of Sun, Java coffee and other small furry creatures altering the beans, if he knows of anybody to have done a custom/retro "PCB" from wood, with engraved traces filled with solder or other conductive stuff, optionally dual-layered or with a minimized number of wire bridges between trace islands. If not, does he think it's doable (i.e. easy to make)?

It should go very well with a wooden case with top transparent (glass-like) plastic.

Muirium · 06 Dec 2014, 15:38

Um, as for your question, I guess that sounds pretty cool. Could be doable for all I know, but I've surely never heard of it. Melt some shiny, precious looking stuff into those channels for cyberpunk bling!

Laser · 06 Dec 2014, 17:21

Ugh, that picture ...
I might just try to create such a cyberboard

Muirium · 06 Dec 2014, 17:27

People think Elon Musk is the celebrity businessman who aspires to be Iron Man. They are wrong!

The Keyboard Oracle · 06 Dec 2014, 17:38

Laser wrote: ↑knows of anybody to have done a custom/retro "PCB" from wood, with engraved traces filled with solder or other conductive stuff

The Keyboard Oracle has decided: Jean-Baptiste Labrune.

Laser · 06 Dec 2014, 17:43

That's cool! His "narratives" (and neologisms) - from some other slides - are a mouthful,
but the "PCBs" look quite inspirational

crunch · 19 Dec 2014, 15:12

Hi. Could this be a ALPS keyboard. I asked the seller and it said. ALPSCL 188XX, Family :AT 101- 102.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171594263839

Muirium · 19 Dec 2014, 15:16

Perhaps. But I'm pretty sure I've heard that Alps also made rubberdome keyboards, without their switch. The best way to know is to get a good picture with a cap pulled.

Also, one of these three ain't like the others:

The seller seems not to notice and is offering them indiscriminately. Try to avoid the bottom one! Windows keys are often a sign of late models, which are generally worse in classic keyboards.

crunch · 19 Dec 2014, 15:30

Yes, he said the other one has model number SK-710W and that is a rubber dome and I think the other ones are too. When they have ALPSCL 18 something I believe it's domes.

Daniel Beardsmore · 19 Dec 2014, 22:18

Alps codes are weird. The assembly and model numbers to look for are those beginning "KCLEA" and "KCMEA" (older) and "KFCLEA" and "KFCMEA" (includes Bigfoot). "CM" means SKCM (tactile switches) and "CL" means SKCL (linear switches).

I don't know that the "CL" means SKCL here, but as it does resemble an Alps Bigfoot so it's probably a yellow Alps version:

http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~silencium/k ... ml/ax.html

SKCL Yellow Bigfoot keyboards were sold in Japan. If you're really, really lucky you might get SKCL Green instead (also confirmed to exist in Bigfoot keyboards). You should get nice sturdy dye-sub keycaps with it too. Even my cheaper Silitek version is still a nice solid keyboard.

Anticube · 20 Dec 2014, 02:43

Dear Oracle, dear anyone who wish help me.
I'm going to set my main kb, and after my homeworks I came to:
IF TOPRE
Realforce 87-uniform-45g (but I cannot find it in any country) vs Leopold fc660c
IF CHERRY (red mx)
Wasd tkl vs Leopold fc660m vs keycool 87(masdropping now).
My later setup would be:
uselesswinkey-less (i will eradicate it to the bone), illuminatedless, control swapped on caps lock, at least modifiers to be colored, possibility to place sa or dsa keycaps, if cherry mix some switch color.
I know I should make it myself, but if I do, I would end up building a square matrix...
Please could you light up a path?

The Keyboard Oracle · 20 Dec 2014, 03:06

The Keyboard Oracle has decided: The Realforce. If 'tis the wrong path, it hath fair resale value.

gangolfus · 22 Dec 2014, 19:00

Oh great and wise Keyboard Oracle, I am in search of a unicorn!

In the early aughts, Microsoft introduced a key layout with a reorganized Home/End/Page Up/Page Down/Delete key area. By all accounts it was a colossal failure and now is nearly impossible to find. I happen to be the sole person on earth who actually preferred this layout and now am hoping to find a mechanical keyboard with it. Does it exist?

The layout can be seen here: http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-E17-001 ... B00006D2LG

If it pleases you, a goat will be sacrificed in your honor if you can find me a suitable keyboard. I will upgrade my offering to a human virgin if that keyboard also has F-keys in groups of 3 instead of 4.

My internet scouring has only found 2 keyboards currently being manufactured with this layout: Logitech Wireless Desktop MK320 and Logitech Wireless Wave Combo Mk550.

Daniel Beardsmore · 22 Dec 2014, 19:39

gangolfus wrote: ↑I will upgrade my offering to a human virgin if that keyboard also has F-keys in groups of 3 instead of 4.

Sacrificing fellow keyboard enthusiasts is mean :(

snoopy · 22 Dec 2014, 19:42

Should I sell all my cherry crap and be happy with Buckling Spring and topre?

Muirium · 22 Dec 2014, 19:47

You haven't already? Hoarder!

snoopy · 22 Dec 2014, 19:54

I did... about a year ago. And then it started again... and now it's just too much.

Muirium · 22 Dec 2014, 22:18

It's always the caps and the custom layouts which tug me back to MX. (7bit's doing it on purpose now with the HyperMicro!) We need adapters and customs in BS and Topre. NovaTouch sliders are too fat, unfortunately. But I have hope in the makers here…

Hypersphere · 22 Dec 2014, 22:38

snoopy wrote: ↑I did... about a year ago. And then it started again... and now it's just too much.

Similar story here. I feel like we ought to be sitting in a circle in "group", sharing stories of our addiction. In any event, I finally decided that I had established once and for all that Cherry mx wasn't for me -- my favorites were definitely IBM Buckling Spring (especially Model F) and Topre (especially 55g, but I tolerate 45g for the sake of the form factor and layout of my HHKB). So, I actually sold all of my Cherry mx boards. But then I thought I really needed a standard TKL and a Poker II just to show off my Cherry mx keycap collection. And now, I have decided I need to try Matias switches -- I rather like them, but they need new keycaps, so I am buying vintage Alps boards. I'm typing on my V60 Matias Quiet Click mini keyboard now (with its new array of caps from a Dell AT101W and Suntouch Jr.). BTW, the Suntouch Jr. is a really nice board -- I like typing on it better than an Ortek MCK-84 or a SIIG Minitouch with Monterey blues. Now I need to determine again what I am willing to sell -- mainly for the sake of maintaining domestic tranquility.

Muirium · 22 Dec 2014, 22:47

You like to be too rigorous, Hyper. I suggest less purchasing and more meditation…

(I practice this myself through the ancient zen principle of being perpetually skint.)

Daniel Beardsmore · 22 Dec 2014, 22:58

What's the difference between a SunTouch Jr and the MiniTouch? There were rumblings that the Sun* products were for Sun computers, but I've never found any proof of that. The MiniTouch just seemed to be an assortment of old stock K110 keyboards, although as my request for IC dates went unheeded, I don't have any confirmation of actual production dates of MiniTouch keyboards. I never did figure out why it got two separate names (MiniTouch and SunTouch Jr). The SunTouch itself isn't even a Monterey, it's a Chicony. (Assuming Monterey have any production facilities, as maybe they subbed out to Chicony.)

Hypersphere · 22 Dec 2014, 23:13

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: ↑What's the difference between a SunTouch Jr and the MiniTouch? There were rumblings that the Sun* products were for Sun computers, but I've never found any proof of that. The MiniTouch just seemed to be an assortment of old stock K110 keyboards, although as my request for IC dates went unheeded, I don't have any confirmation of actual production dates of MiniTouch keyboards. I never did figure out why it got two separate names (MiniTouch and SunTouch Jr). The SunTouch itself isn't even a Monterey, it's a Chicony. (Assuming Monterey have any production facilities, as maybe they subbed out to Chicony.)

Not sure. The label on my Minitouch has SIIG on it and indicates that the keyboard was made in Taiwan. My Suntouch Jr. has a Suntouch Jr. label with made in Taiwan, and it has a separate sticker than says SIIG. The Suntouch Jr. is a bit larger than the Minitouch and has full-size F-keys and mods except for a short right-shift key; it also has an ISO-style Enter key instead of the backward-L on the Minitouch, and it has white Alps. For whatever reasons, I like typing on the Suntouch Jr. better than the Ortek MCK-84 or the SIIG Minitouch.

Muirium · 22 Dec 2014, 23:31

My (NIB) K110 has some hairy looking addenda to its PCB (hand soldered wires) so some amateurism seems to have been at work in its inception. Want any pictures of its innards? I forget which boards I've got which are still of interest!

Daniel Beardsmore · 22 Dec 2014, 23:44

Hypersphere wrote: ↑The Suntouch Jr. is a bit larger than the Minitouch and has full-size F-keys and mods except for a short right-shift key; it also has an ISO-style Enter key instead of the backward-L on the Minitouch, and it has white Alps. For whatever reasons, I like typing on the Suntouch Jr. better than the Ortek MCK-84 or the SIIG Minitouch.

So your Suntouch Jr is neither the Ortek MKB-84 SX version nor the Monterey K110 version? That would mean that there's a third flavour of Suntouch Jr out there.

My feeling is that yours is just the Ortek MKB-84 SX, and that your Ortek MCK-84 is an FX (Alps clones).

Muirium wrote: ↑My (NIB) K110 has some hairy looking addenda to its PCB (hand soldered wires) so some amateurism seems to have been at work in its inception. Want any pictures of its innards? I forget which boards I've got which are still of interest!

I can't find the topic now. I only found this one:

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/see ... t8316.html

I thought I'd asked for controller dates from the MiniTouch too, to get confirmation that they were not manufactured within the date range that SIIG put out purchase orders for them.

I'm not interested in the K110 particularly, since I've actually been in touch with Monterey about that. It's the SIIG products that interest me. However, if anyone has a K110P that would be nice to see (I only have a catalogue photo of that).

shreebles · 26 Dec 2014, 12:45

O keyboard oracle,
Why is it that the caps on a new G80 fit so tightly that I pull off the entire switch top when trying to pull just the caps? How do I take these apart gently without pulling off a switch and wrecking the entire thing?

Muirium · 26 Dec 2014, 13:03

I know that feeling from my NMB. Space Invaders are right fiddly little buggers to pull caps off without opening up. Nightmare!

Is your G80 PCB mount? I know next to nothing about Cherry's boards (boo!) except they did a lot of that. Anyway, I guess you need to stick something in sideways to hold the switch top down while pulling these tight caps. That seems doable with MX, if awkward. Space Invaders have no top shell at all, so there was no way around it.

shreebles · 28 Dec 2014, 02:05

Muirium wrote: ↑ Is your G80 PCB mount? I know next to nothing about Cherry's boards (boo!) except they did a lot of that.

It is! As far as I know, all G80 keyboards except for the newer 3800 and 3850 (Cherry MX-Board 2.0 and 3.0, respectively) are PCB-mounted.

Muirium wrote: ↑ Anyway, I guess you need to stick something in sideways to hold the switch top down while pulling these tight caps.

I did this, using a small flathead screwdriver, but holding down from the bottom part of the switch where the diodes go. Worked a charm - thanks

760 mmHg · 28 Dec 2014, 16:06

Well, this is it, I purchased a brand new French Topre Realforce 105UB 45g just like you advised, and I have to say that typing on it is just exquisite! Quite expensive but totally worth it. Now I'm looking for ways to make it even more silent.

I would like to thank Muirium, Hypersphere, kbdfr and all the forum for the fast, precise, and efficient advice that you provided!

Muirium · 28 Dec 2014, 17:44

You're welcome. Realforces are some of the very best keyboards out there. Glad you enjoy yours.

7th1rt3en · 29 Dec 2014, 02:56

I'm looking for a keyboard to use for gaming 70% of the time, with a little forum typing thrown in for good measure. I use the term "typing" loosely as I have not graduated past the 2-finger method yet.... Anyway, I'll just state some preferences.

In order of importance to me, or close to it:

Reliability/customer service, I don't want to pay for shipping if the issue is a manufacturer defect *cough* corsair
Rollover/adjustable repeat rate
Feels, relatively linear and smooove or at least no click.
Quiet, I'm VERY easily annoyed. This WAS my #1 consideration at first, thus topre and alps consideration. Still very important.
TKL Preferred
LEDeez, they are cool, objective fact. Individual lighting would be more useful than solid color. RGB, white or red.
Construction, I like metal, at least on top. Aftermarket cases are not out of the question.
Customization options are always nice.

I was really digging the K65 RGB with reds, but reported LED issues coupled with cost really soured my opinion. For that price, it should work or cost nothing to have fixed. I really prefer the sound of topre switches, but I have no idea how they feel and there are no topre keyboards with lighting. Plus they are more expensive than comparable MX boards and offer no real keycap options (ignoring NovaTouch TKL). So called "quiet" Alps type switches strike me as somewhere in between topre and MX in regards to sound, but just like topre, offer no real keycap or lighting options. They are also more expensive than MX boards and I can't find a linear version.

I would likely go with the cooler master topre/hybrid if it had lighting, but how pronounced is the bump/feedback? Workable for gaming? I could go with some sort of MX red board with o-rings/landing pads. I realize that my ideal board just doesn't exist, I just need a limited number of boards that you guys think are a good compromise. Ibviously I'm more likely to compromise on items lower on my list of preferences. Budget is close to $150, the lower the better. I could go higher (up to $200), but only if it's really worth it. Thanks in advance.