Group Build prototyping phase

Muirium · 28 Jan 2015, 00:35

I suspect there is. Most of my keyboards seem to be the same. 7º incline, as best as I can measure (using a tiny protractor…).

Findecanor · 28 Jan 2015, 01:00

There is no standard angle. Ducky and Filco are different. CM Storm might ape after Filco though.. The top surface of the Novatouch also has a slight curve, and they may have copied that from the QFR, which should have the same source as Filco..
For the record, I prefer them as flat as possible, but I'm probably not going in on this group buy.

Muirium wrote: ↑It's actually a mighty 2.75u Shift key that I'm using, stab-free, on my little Monterey:

SMK Alps-mount switch are more stable than Alps SKCL/SKCM.
And by the way... I think your keyboard could support Costar-like stabilisers. I see the clips. You would need the right inserts.

The keycaps on my Chicony (Monterey switches) have cruciform stabiliser mounts that are Cherry MX stem-compatible.
The stabiliser bar and mount is very close to the Costar stabilisers (I compared to the ones that WASD Keyboard sells) but not exact.
Unfortunately, keycaps made for Alps stabilisers don't work with Costar stabilisers: the inserts are at the same height but different in the plane.

BTW, I have a "big-ass" Enter key from a keyboard with Alps that uses one type of stabiliser for the vertical and another for the horisontal.

Nuum wrote: ↑I don't know why they put a stabilizer there, especially on such a seldom used key.

Alps are more unstable side-to-side than up/down. Apple's vintage keyboards also have stabilisers on 1.75 keys.

matt3o wrote: ↑Another small details. The plate rests over 8 standoffs, between the plate and the standoff you have a tiny silicone o-ring (to reduce vibration).

DRM FN 3.2×6×8 ? That is what I got as standoff cylinders for my ErgoDox. I suppose 3.2×6×7 could be used with an O-ring.

Do you plan on welding steel parts together? I have been considering building a case out of interlocking 1/8" plywood, if only the guys in charge at the local makerspace could fix the ventilation for the laser cutter so I could try it out.

Muirium · 28 Jan 2015, 01:34

Every time I try to measure the incline on a keyboard, I get 7º. BUT! I'm using a little Helix protractor that's not at all well suited to the task:

I've got quite a few and fairly diverse keyboards, if someone can suggest a more accurate way.

matt3o · 28 Jan 2015, 08:54

Findecanor wrote: ↑ DRM FN 3.2×6×8 ? That is what I got as standoff cylinders for my ErgoDox. I suppose 3.2×6×7 could be used with an O-ring.

They are 2.5x1x4.5 (IDxSxOD).

Findecanor wrote: ↑ Do you plan on welding steel parts together? I have been considering building a case out of interlocking 1/8" plywood, if only the guys in charge at the local makerspace could fix the ventilation for the laser cutter so I could try it out.

I sent the quote request yesterday. welding depends on pricing, it would be nice but it adds a lot of post processing to make it clean.

I'm also planning a wood case, but --believe it or not-- it's not that cheaper than steel.

I did some research on the keyboard angle. I couldn't find a definitive answer, but it seems that the keyboard should stay pretty much flat. They say that if the keyboard feels too flat and you need to raise the feet, you are in the wrong position to the desk and you should instead raise your chair. That actually makes sense.

matt3o · 28 Jan 2015, 17:39

Today I got a quote for another design I did a while back. It's a hidden-screws layered design.

This is the end result:

To understand how it works you have to see the exploded version:

Basically we have threaded inserts in the top frame/layer, the screws are on the bottom. The plate is held with screws that are --again-- tighten to the bottom of the top frame.

Pretty complex design but the cost of such a best would be around 90 euros all included, which is not actually that bad.

pyrelink · 28 Jan 2015, 19:31

Hm, I still really like the elf board, but a steel case would be pretty awesome too. Notably the little peninsula separating the arrow keys from the mods, is such a neat feature. Price really isn't that bad at all. Will be a hard choice.

Muirium · 28 Jan 2015, 19:43

You're in Round 5. Who said anything about a choice!?

jacobolus · 28 Jan 2015, 21:19

matt3o wrote: ↑what would be the ideal angle? is there a "standard"?

The ideal angle depends on the height of your desk, because the purpose of the angle is to let the plane the switches are in be about parallel to your forearms, with your wrists held as straight as possible.

If you have the keyboard on your lap, or on an under-desk keyboard tray, then the ideal angle is approximately flat, or even tilted slightly down at the far side (maybe –5°). If you have a tall keyboard on a tall desk, the ideal angle might be as much as 20°.

The most comfortable way to type is sitting up straight with the keyboard in your lap or just above so that your elbows can be bent at a >90° angle with your upper arms held close to your sides, your wrists as straight as possible, and the keyboard surface about flat, with your wrists and palms “floating” in the air, not resting on anything (or with the keyboard at a similar height relative to your torso if you’re on a tall stool or standing). But old keyboards from the 60s–70s have very steep angles, because they were expected to be used with tall desks and low chairs. With a tall desk, the best way to type is with your upper arms still hanging straight down at your sides (try not to let them stick out to the side or forward), and your elbows bent to whatever angle allows your hands to reach the keyboard with your wrists as straight as possible.

The tilt on most modern office keyboards is an attempt to compromise between various desk/chair setups (or more realistically: that was the goal for the ones made by e.g. IBM and Honeywell who had teams of human factors experts, and then later companies just copied blindly). Since most office workers use a high-ish desk and a low-ish chair, they try to at least partly compensate for that by tilting the keyboard. The best way to use a modern office keyboard with a built-in 5–10° tilt is to mount it on an adjustable under-desk tray tilted down at the far side so that the plane of the switches ends up at about flat (or maybe tilted slightly down), or else use a low desk or a tall stool/saddle chair (or stand) and pile something under the front end of the keyboard. If you’re stuck with a high desk / low chair and can’t change anything about the furniture, then it’s usually worth flipping the rear feet down on keyboards that have them, so you can get a steeper angle. If a keyboard doesn’t have flip-down feet, it’s helpful to prop the back up with something.

Personally I think the best design for new standard-layout keyboards is to be simply flat and as low as possible, but with adjustable feet in the back that allow various tilts up to 20° or so.

Muirium · 28 Jan 2015, 21:29

The trouble with a flat box is that the feet look ungainly, and frankly quite comically large when using it at the normal kind of angle for most people. Wedge shaped cases are the natural looking shape for keyboards. Anything else is an exception to the rule and very much a visual statement!

SL89 · 28 Jan 2015, 22:55

now this is a thread i havent peek in on in forever...

@Muirium, i have to imagine a wedge case would cost more, isnt part of this to keep the cost down?

@matt3o how much more expensive is the hidden screw version then the 'regular' version you got quoted.

jacobolus · 28 Jan 2015, 23:02

Muirium wrote: ↑The trouble with a flat box is that the feet look ungainly, and frankly quite comically large when using it at the normal kind of angle for most people. Wedge shaped cases are the natural looking shape for keyboards. Anything else is an exception to the rule and very much a visual statement!

Let me summarize your argument: we should compromise the functionality of keyboards for the sake of making them look like whatever IBM was making in the 80s, because that’s what we’re used to.

Well, fair enough. After all, the physical and logical arrangement of the letters dates from the 1870s and persists out of inertia rather than any particular merit, and every other aspect of the design basically comes from decisions made at IBM up through the 80s, based on what made sense for their customers at the time, economical production using the materials and methods of the time, matching their existing software, a few elements copied from other computer makers, and sometimes just totally arbitrary choices.

If you want to make something really good then you need to decide what your design criteria and constraints are (in terms of construction methods, materials, learning curve, etc.). My advice above is springing from the design constraint of: assuming key layout is already predetermined, what’s the best functional keyboard shape you could make? It sounds like your design constraints are something different, and it’s not clear to me exactly what. Having your own criteria is totally reasonable, but you should try to make your constraints explicit if you want to be able to fully exercise your creativity to come up with the best solution within those constraints.

A wedge shape with no adjustability is pretty good if you plan to use a very specific (poorly chosen IMO, but whatever) desk and chair. If you want to design with a wedge shape, you basically force your environment to meet that specific tilt, or otherwise just accept that you’ll have harder to reach keys and/or a better chance of suffering RSI. (Or you can always pile things under the front or back of the keyboard to compensate, but that probably runs contrary to your aesthetic goals.)

matt3o · 29 Jan 2015, 00:27

well... we could have a slightly angled design, say around 5-6 degrees + option for the feet. So if you stay in a proper environment you don't need additional height on the back, otherwise you've got options.

@SL89, the "regular" version would be way cheaper. I hope to keep the "tray" version (with bent sides) below €40, but I'm still waiting for a final quotation.

Muirium · 29 Jan 2015, 00:38

Below 40 Euros? That would be impressive indeed!

5-6 degrees elevation sounds bang on, to me. That'd be perfect!

I don't disagree with you Jacob, on principles, where we differ is in priorities. I think an accommodation towards mainstream use (and looks) is well worthwhile, and with a slim design there's still plenty of options besides, for those who wish. That's the thing with customs: one size never fits all, so more sizes!

matt3o · 29 Jan 2015, 07:56

only thing I have to verify for angled design is if I can find all the standoffs in the right size. that could be a problem. Also probably the o-rings become mandatory (since the hole is not straight over the standoff anymore)

gianni · 29 Jan 2015, 14:17

Many layouts that you have suggested require non standard keysets; to have the maximum participation, you could also do a standard 60% pcb/plate (poker II for reference). From what I've seen it could be possible to make a layout compatible with both ansi and iso, with a minimum modification by the end user.

pasph · 29 Jan 2015, 14:37

I suspect we can find all the keys needed in some "PBT/Dye-sub DCS set from SP"

SL89 · 29 Jan 2015, 14:38

sounds good matt3o, either design still has my interest.

additionally, all this talk of an 'angled' case (still made from wood i hope) has gotten me thinking about something, but it would probably be another idea for another project...

make an angled case with a router out of a single block of hardwood, with a cavity of appropriate depth and proper mounting points. materials and processing would be expensive tho (im guessing here) and im not sure it fits the parameters of this project.

gianni · 29 Jan 2015, 14:45

Well, buying also another keyset would require a total investment of about 350 eur...

matt3o · 29 Jan 2015, 15:03

gianni wrote: ↑Many layouts that you have suggested require non standard keysets; to have the maximum participation, you could also do a standard 60% pcb/plate (poker II for reference). From what I've seen it could be possible to make a layout compatible with both ansi and iso, with a minimum modification by the end user.

the only special key is the 1.75u right shift which is actually included in all my keycap group buys

I'll be running a new GB soon, so you could grab that.

scottc · 29 Jan 2015, 15:07

matt3o wrote: ↑
I'll be running a new GB soon, so you could grab that.

Nooo, please, hasn't my poor wallet suffered enough?!

matt3o · 29 Jan 2015, 15:08

scottc wrote: ↑
matt3o wrote: ↑
I'll be running a new GB soon, so you could grab that.
Nooo, please, hasn't my poor wallet suffered enough?!

this time shipping is from EU!

scottc · 29 Jan 2015, 15:09

Well... Now I'm extra excited!

Nuum · 29 Jan 2015, 15:21

pyrelink · 29 Jan 2015, 17:23

Damn, and now the mysterious keyset?! For the first time, awesome group buys are coinciding with a time when I actually have a bit of money to spend.

DanielT · 29 Jan 2015, 17:50

I think this the mistery GB :https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=68082.0

pyrelink · 29 Jan 2015, 17:56

Interesting. The last I had heard about it was this thread: http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/type ... t8932.html

I don't know. Not a big fan of DCS, or SP's super thin DCS. I do really like the color and font though...

Muirium · 29 Jan 2015, 18:05

Phew! If it were the HiPro style tall PBT sphericals set, I'd be doooooomed!

matt3o · 29 Jan 2015, 18:13

the manufactured dropped the ball on PBT hi-profile, it will take more time for that.

Muirium · 29 Jan 2015, 18:31

Over promise. Never deliver.

SL89 · 30 Jan 2015, 13:39

Muirium wrote: ↑Over promise. Never deliver.

OP never delivers!