deskthority

These two compact keyboards are nearly identical: the other one is wired and the other wireless. If you place these boards side by side without any cables attached you cannot tell the difference. The shiny plastic shell is a bit of a turnoff for me aesthetically, but it’s something I can get over.

First of all, the switches are magnificent. They are the best tactile switch I’ve ever typed on which is why I have almost completely abandoned Cherry and Topre. The keycaps probably aren’t the highest quality but still feel quite nice and durable.

The Fn functions in these keyboards are identical. While some of the key placement is very well thought out, the rest is not very much so. The volume cluster in the arrow keys deserves all the praise I can give. Print screen, scroll lock and pause are located in the F9-F11 keys which is nice - you still have them but they’re not wasting space on the keyboard. I also quite like the placement of the delete key.

Having Home and End keys under Fn is just unnecessary and inconvenient. They could have easily fit another column of keys next to Page up/down and given dedicated keys for Home and End. The Play, Fwd and Rwd keys are located on ESC-F2 which is not very useful.

Unfortunately, the integrated numpad function (in the JKL cluster) is absolutely useless. You cannot lock it into numpad mode like you can in Topre 87U, instead you have to press Fn and the corresponding letter each time you want to produce a number from the numpad cluster. Firstly, the reach from Fn to the numpad is quite a stretch (I have long fingers and still struggle) and secondly this defeats the purpose of having an integrated numpad.

The Secure Pro has an excellent battery life provided you remember to turn it off when you’re not using it. I, unfortunately, often forget to do that and therefore get a battery life of approximately 3 weeks in one charge. An auto-off feature would be a really nice addition to this keyboard, but I’m not really sure how that could be implemented. The Secure Pro can be used while charging.

The wireless reception is great even with some distance making it a nice keyboard for a media center. I had my doubts about the tiny nano receiver dongle but it seems to work very well.

In conclusion, these keyboards are so nice to type on you can easily forgive some of the not so successful design choices. Home/End keys in the navigation cluster and a little more thought on the Fn keys, and this would have been the perfect keyboard.

Julle wrote: The Secure Pro has an excellent battery life provided you remember to turn it off when you’re not using it. I, unfortunately, often forget to do that and therefore get a battery life of approximately 3 weeks in one charge. An auto-off feature would be a really nice addition to this keyboard, but I’m not really sure how that could be implemented.

3 week? wow the minila is still running after 3 months (never manually turned it off). Wondering if the encryption is the culprit.

Many bluetooth keyboards implement it by shutting off the radio, but still scanning the matrix.

Press a key, the keys are stored in a buffer while it turns on the radio and re-pairs, and then sent to the host once the connection is established.

All wireless keyboards are scanning the matrix while idling? Otherwise you'd have to press a Resume switch instead of any key to continue.

Could slow down the matrix scanning, though, it'd compromise rollover performance slightly but save power.

I understand what a TV and VCR remote control is good for, but I never understood that for keyboards and mice.

Thanks for reviewing these boards.

1. Have you tried the Matias Mini Tactile Pro? If so, how do you find that the feel of the tactile switches vs. the quiet switches?

2. I have frequently been tempted to acquire either the Mini Quiet Pro or the Mini Tactile Pro. I have tried the Mini Tactile Pro and I liked the feel of the switches, but the sound was irritating (note that it is not loudness per se, because I am typing this on an IBM XT keyboard, which I like for both the sound and the feel). However, I have been unable to get past the negatives of the Matias keyboards (e.g., glossy finish, ABS keycaps, "telly tubby" or Fisher-Price look, some aspects of the layout, lack of availability of keycaps, and lack of DIP switches and/or programmability).

3. It would be good (from my perspective) if there could be more of a mix and match between the Mini Quiet Pro and Mini Tactile Pro, e.g., a tactile click PC version and a quiet Mac version. I would also like to be able to do a two-tone color scheme with separate colors for modifiers vs. alphanumeric keys. Finally, I like the HHKB layout and I try to remap my keyboards in this way, including replacing keycaps to match the layout; looks like this would be difficult to do with the Matias keyboards.

7bit wrote:I understand what a TV and VCR remote control is good for, but I never understood that for keyboards and mice.

I find wire on mouse ergonomically uncomfortable.

I will note, for what it's worth, that at least on the full-size Tactile Pro and Quiet Pro, that the controller is quite easily replaceable, so an adapter board to run something like, say, Soarer's firmware could be made.

bhtooefr wrote:I will note, for what it's worth, that at least on the full-size Tactile Pro and Quiet Pro, that the controller is quite easily replaceable, so an adapter board to run something like, say, Soarer's firmware could be made.

pictures would be highly appreciated!

rjrich wrote:Thanks for reviewing these boards.

1. Have you tried the Matias Mini Tactile Pro? If so, how do you find that the feel of the tactile switches vs. the quiet switches?

2. I have frequently been tempted to acquire either the Mini Quiet Pro or the Mini Tactile Pro. I have tried the Mini Tactile Pro and I liked the feel of the switches, but the sound was irritating (note that it is not loudness per se, because I am typing this on an IBM XT keyboard, which I like for both the sound and the feel). However, I have been unable to get past the negatives of the Matias keyboards (e.g., glossy finish, ABS keycaps, "telly tubby" or Fisher-Price look, some aspects of the layout, lack of availability of keycaps, and lack of DIP switches and/or programmability).

3. It would be good (from my perspective) if there could be more of a mix and match between the Mini Quiet Pro and Mini Tactile Pro, e.g., a tactile click PC version and a quiet Mac version. I would also like to be able to do a two-tone color scheme with separate colors for modifiers vs. alphanumeric keys. Finally, I like the HHKB layout and I try to remap my keyboards in this way, including replacing keycaps to match the layout; looks like this would be difficult to do with the Matias keyboards.

I agree about what you said about Matias' current offering of keyboard models. You should be able to choose your switches and OS compatibility freely, or at the very least, give me a DIP switch or two to alternate between PC and Mac mode.

Funny you should mention the Tactile Pro and programmability. I'm building an Ergodox with Matias clicky switches at the moment. I haven't really tried the switches on a complete keyboard, only on a switch tester board I built from a cannibalized Alps board earlier.

The problem I have at the moment is that the acrylic case I received with the Ergodox order is designed for Cherry switches. There are these little tabs of acrylic I have to file away in order to make the Matias switches fit. It's going to be even more tedious than soldering SMD diodes, but what can you do.

I will surely report back once I've finished the build.

Regarding the numpad issue, have you tried pressing the "num lock" that is in the function layer under the N key? That seems like the thing that would prevent you from having to push FN every time you want to use the integrated numpad.

One thing that should be noted about Matias is they put a lot of thought into designing their keyboards, which I learned during the Edgar Matias reddit AMA. Their designs have to be a mix between quality and affordability, so they put lots of quality and thought into the designs while still keeping it competitive on price.

I had a Mini Tactile Pro, and I found the feel to be better than clicky Cherry switches with a tad less clicky to them. The click in the Matias clicky switches is not as noticeable. But as a buckling spring fanatic, it did not compare well to that classic switch. However, the Matias boards have certain advantages over other boards, and they may produce some of my favorite compact keyboards.

I think the best thing that they could do to improve the appeal of their keyboards is lose the glossy finish. That seems to be a main complaint from a lot of people.

Having the ability to build a custom keyboard would be a great option from them, running a system similar to WASD. But their manufacturing is done in China, so there might be some lack of flexibility in creating orders.

However, they could have all the parts shipped to their North American facilities and assembled them for an extra fee. How hard would it be to slap some keycaps on a soldered PCB, plug in the controller, and put it in a case? Charge a small assembly fee, and there ya go.

I have tried that very thing you suggested, prdlm2009.

I even contacted Matias regarding the issue, this was their answer:

Matias Tech Support wrote: We designed the Secure Pro Keyboard to only produce numbers by holding down the Fn key while pressing the appropriate keys. The Fn+N sequence does not "lock" the embedded number pad. What the Fn+N sequence does is toggles the embedded number pad between "number mode" and "arrow key mode".

Our logic was that people who bought our compact keyboard did not have a strong need for a dedicated, lockable number pad. (If they did have such a need, then they would probably purchase our full size Matias Quiet Pro Keyboard for PC (FK302QPC ... which also comes in Nordic layout: FK302QPC-ND) instead). By not making the embedded number pad as lockable, we focus the keyboard on always returning quickly to the default letter mode to support typing with words. Of course, the Secure Pro Keyboard also has the numbers along the top always locked as numbers.

Thanks for your other suggestions too. We will certainly consider your ideas. We are always open to new ways of making our keyboards, and feedback from actual users is the best place.

As for auto-off, the keyboard already does go into low power mode, if the keyboard hasn't been typed on for a while, but that of course, is not the same as completely turning off. For that, pressing the on/off key is necessary.

Julle wrote:I have tried that very thing you suggested, prdlm2009.

I even contacted Matias regarding the issue, this was their answer:

Matias Tech Support wrote: We designed the Secure Pro Keyboard to only produce numbers by holding down the Fn key while pressing the appropriate keys. The Fn+N sequence does not "lock" the embedded number pad. What the Fn+N sequence does is toggles the embedded number pad between "number mode" and "arrow key mode".

Our logic was that people who bought our compact keyboard did not have a strong need for a dedicated, lockable number pad. (If they did have such a need, then they would probably purchase our full size Matias Quiet Pro Keyboard for PC (FK302QPC ... which also comes in Nordic layout: FK302QPC-ND) instead). By not making the embedded number pad as lockable, we focus the keyboard on always returning quickly to the default letter mode to support typing with words. Of course, the Secure Pro Keyboard also has the numbers along the top always locked as numbers.

Thanks for your other suggestions too. We will certainly consider your ideas. We are always open to new ways of making our keyboards, and feedback from actual users is the best place.

As for auto-off, the keyboard already does go into low power mode, if the keyboard hasn't been typed on for a while, but that of course, is not the same as completely turning off. For that, pressing the on/off key is necessary.

Interesting. Thanks for the reply. I hope that I did not insult your intelligence. Does the Mini Quiet Pro have a lockable integrated num pad? I wonder why they would even include a num lock key if it has no functionality.

No problem, mate. The Mini Quiet Pro is just the same as the Secure Pro. The integrated numpad is useless there, too.

Julle wrote:No problem, mate. The Mini Quiet Pro is just the same as the Secure Pro. The integrated numpad is useless there, too.

Awful decision on their part. Why even have an integrated numpad if it has no lockable capability?

prdlm2009 wrote:I wonder why they would even include a num lock key if it has no functionality.

As Matias tech support said to Julle above: Num Lock is a logic toggle between numbers and navigation *behind* the Fn key, which you must hold manually. This is a similar idea to what the Model M SSK does, but I think it's a lot more sensible. Far as I know* the SSK puts that toggle on Num Lock, but the actual frickin' numpad can be locked into action using Shift+Num Lock. Best of both worlds!

*This is a bit of guesswork, though, as OS X ignores Num Lock and I only use my SSK with Macs. Certainly Shift+Num Lock locks the SSK into numpad mode.

Perhaps Matias is afraid of confused users asking why their keyboard is "broken" when the mysterious virtual num pad is accidentally locked on and they have no idea why? It can take you by surprise on an SSK. There is no mode light to warn you, like Caps Lock.

Re: battery life. Remember this isn't a Bluetooth keyboard, so comparisons with Filco's Minila Air aren't direct. The custom protocol Matias is using for security (and, really, the oddball hardware it requires) probably just isn't as well tuned as modern Bluetooth components.

And re: build quality vs. switch feel. That is exactly why I am to build my own Matias switch custom, using harvested dye sub Alps caps. They've got a great switch there, but their boards don't match well with me.

Julle wrote:Having Home and End keys under Fn is just unnecessary and inconvenient. They could have easily fit another column of keys next to Page up/down and given dedicated keys for Home and End.

Hmm.

That's something I cannot adjust to on a Poker II. The Fn pseudo-modifier messes with my head, and it gets worse when you realise that you can't introduce shift without releasing Fn, pressing shift, and pressing Fn again (as Fn+right shift toggles the Pn layer). Putting pg up/down on the Fn layer would have made far more sense to me, as I rarely if ever use those keys with any modifiers held (Photoshop has a use for it, but I rarely use it), while I use home/end extensively, and extensively with modifiers, e.g. ctrl+home, shift+end etc.

The treatment of home/end on the Mini Quiet Pro is basically a complete dealbreaker for me, as it stops it from solving pretty much the worst problem I have with the Poker II: having to reach for the mouse instead of pressing home/end. It's just too confusing trying to balance two fundamentally different modifier concepts in my head at once.

It's a pity, as the MQP solves two other issues: single-handed access to the F keys (useful for Inkscape when I need one hand on the mouse) and access to numeric keypad bindings, e.g. in Windows, you can fully expand a tree node only with numeric keypad * — the normal * key won't work.

Sadly, modern compact and TKL keyboards aren't diligent when it comes to embedded number pads.

What's so strange is just how many new layouts are being churned out month after month and none of them seem right. I think I'd be fine with TKL + embedded number pad. MQP is so extremely close, but still wrong.

With that said, the Matias quiet click switches are too juddery for me, and MX red is just so much nicer.

Julle wrote:The Play, Fwd and Rwd keys are located on ESC-F2 which is not very useful.

Ironically I use +/- on the numeric keypad for that: with ctrl held, it's volume, and ctrl+shift held, it's ff/rw. For stop I use shift+pause. I don't need media keys. (Not at work on the Poker — this is at home on my MJ1.)

It's little annoyances like these that make me worried about getting some stock 60% board. I'd probably get sick of things like those if I couldn't customise them.

Exactly. The HHKB is just about perfect out the box (for my taste, opinions do vary) but every other compact board I've seen has needed programming, badly. Even the HHKB's lack of it is significant, as you really expect perfection from that little guy. Trouble is: perfection varies between people and between days…

I agree. Though, I think you can swap the HHKB controller out for a teensy and use Hasu's TMK while only losing the USB hub, which sounds like a recipe for perfection.

Muirium wrote:Exactly. The HHKB is just about perfect out the box (for my taste, opinions do vary) but every other compact board I've seen has needed programming, badly. Even the HHKB's lack of it is significant, as you really expect perfection from that little guy. Trouble is: perfection varies between people and between days…

I agree. Before actually trying the HHKB, I was highly skeptical about the layout. After trying it, I was amazed at how perfect the layout is. Now I am trying to convert all my other keyboards to the HHKB layout. Those that cannot easily be converted I intend to sell.

Of course, there are other things to like about the HHKB in addition to its intuitive and efficient layout: the form factor, symmetry, color scheme, styling, and PBT dye sub keycaps with a font I can live with.

Things I would add/change about the HHKB:

--55g Silenced Topre switches (or better, capacitive buckling springs--unsilenced, of course!)
--Steel plate

Other potential options:

--Metal case
--Bluetooth
--Forthcoming symmetrical USB connector

Where do you find these models in ISO? also there's only two types of switches right?quite and tactile although both are tactile...

The Keyboard Company (http://www.keyboardco.com/) sells the ISO version. The Secure Pro is available with only the Quiet click (tactile) switches. The Mini is available also with clicky switches but only as a Mac version.

Maybe one day ALPS will take over.... Or Matias switches...

They can wait in line. Cherry's got this to deal with first:

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/raz ... ilit=razer

Or maybe Razer will switch to Donjuan Goatse switches some day. (Cherry clones AND final assembly of the Matias switches, all under one roof!)

Oh dear, the name has stuck ;-P

Just a minor addition to the review: the Secure pro apparently has transposition problems, probably related to the piss-poor wireless dongle. More to come after I sleep this pounding headache off.