Opinions on the new Surface?

[Ace]

What do you guys think about these new tablets/hybrids? How do they stack up against the iPad Pro and Pixel-C? And do you think it made sense to separate the Pro and Book? Do you think they'll dominate their respective markets? All opinions wanted.

[Ace]

My reply to what Mu already had to say

Nope. The Surface is a flawed concept not because of its hardware but because of its software. Trying to be all things to all men is the very definition of compromise. In a world where we're all already using multiple devices, in the form of phones! I'd like to see them get the reason for its ongoing flop, and to do something else entirely. But that's a tall order for a software empire that's still only dabbling in hardware. So much easier to keep tweaking the form factor, while the platform never takes off.

Wait, you?! I've considered getting a gaming laptop before, and thrown out the idea for this same reason: it's nothing but compromise. It's more expensive, and still underpowered, compared to a PC half its price. And its too thick and bulky to travel with. It was dumb concept, admittedly.

But the same can be said about tablets. What did people say when Apple unveiled the iPad for the first time? And the same can be said, as Mu pointed out, about phones.

Things are inevitably becoming more and more condensed. And like the Phone and tablet, there's something strange about hybrids that just works, IMO.

But I'm surprised you're against this, Mu. Weren't you the one who always recommended the Surface when I'd ask about mobile keyboards? Or when Cindy needed a tablet? I thought you'd be excited about this.

[Madhias]

As said in another thread already I like the new Surface Pro, it has a nice screen and resolution, is quite powerful and I could do almost anything I use my PC or laptop or tablet for. And that's the good part of it: first time it would be possible for me to replace all these devices. But then again I would not buy it now, for work mainly, and that's the problem MS has with their mobile devices: someone has to buy their products now...

[bhtooefr]

I have a problem with Microsoft saying that a 1.6 mm travel, scissor-stabilized rubber dome is a "perfect" typing experience.

It may be the best in the class, but it's not perfect.

(Also, I wasn't aware that the Retinas were actually as shallow as they were - 1.4 mm.)

[Findecanor]

Surface Pro 4's keyboard looks like an improvement over the previous keyboards - those are quite horrible. The new ones looks like they could actually be an improvement over using a touch keyboard.
There is still a disturbing lack of ports on the thing, but at least now there is an add-on "dock" for adding a couple more USB ports, and that dock is not too big.

As to the software: A couple of weeks ago I got back from a two-week trip where I used nothing else but a Windows 10 tablet with a touch-screen - and no keyboard. People complain that Windows is too touch-oriented for desktop use. I'd say that Windows 10 is still too desktop-oriented for touch use as well. It is indeed a compromise. If my tablet didn't have support for a pen, I would have been completely lost. A pen is needed in practice for using Windows in tablet mode and anyone who is selling Windows tablets without any should be ashamed of themselves.
I do still think that it would be possible to make an OS that could work well for both touch and desktop: you would just have to think a little further that what Microsoft usually does.

[Muirium]

Bear in mind that there's a lot more to software than just the OS. It's also the apps. One of the core strengths of Apple's split ecosystem: iOS vs. Mac, is just how different third party software is between both platforms. Even companies that make apps for both (the Omni Group is one of my favourites) actually make completely different interfaces and interaction models, one for Mac and one (or two) for iOS. I'm thinking of OmniOutliner and OmniGraffle here, but that's just what I know. There's a lot more dual platform apps out there, and they really do work differently depending on where you run them, because Apple makes it nigh impossible to build your app the same on both! You never feel you need a mouse on iOS, or that you should grab your MacBook's screen and start doing gestures. They're sibling platforms, in the same family but each are individuals, rather than multiple personalities of a single crazy person.

Huh, I didn't think of that analogy before. But now I get why I dislike the Windows Everywhere idea so much!


@Ace: I don't recall ever talking highly of the Surface in its earlier incarnations either. Especially the TypeCover, which I really disliked the first moment I laid hands on one. The Surface concept seems like the worst of both worlds to me, more than the best. I do sympathise with Microsoft making its own hardware, however, as Dell and HP and the rest are all so miserably derivative and desperate to be cheap these days, more even than they were in the past. How are you supposed to work on your platform when all the hardware for it is a steaming mess? Microsoft can afford to do things the OEMs can't. The Surface just doesn't strike me as the right move, and its sales numbers have matched that. The billion dollars they made off the latest generation Surface Pro sounds good, but for some perspective: Apple made more than that in from the first gen Apple Watch in its first quarter, and Christmas is still to come.

[zslane]

I agree with Muirium. My devices get used differently; consequently they need to provide different user experiences.

Maybe I'm unusual in that I compartmentalize the roles of the devices in my life. I use my phone primarily as a phone. I use my desktop computer primarily as a graphics arts/3D content creation workstation. I use my iPad primarily as an Internet device. Each one excels at something different, and I want OSes/UIs that make those different usage experiences optimal.

When I'm not working (either at work or at home), I live my life off my iPad, and so there are bits of functionality I need from other devices. For instance, I can't stand typing on flat glass, so I need a physical keyboard for my tablet. I want one that is just there wherever the iPad is, and ideally is available instantly upon waking it up. But I don't want a laptop, I want a tablet with an ever-present keyboard, that's all.

That's why I have my iPad Air in a bluetooth keyboard case. However, the keyboards in keyboard cases are just awful, at least to anyone who is in love with mechanical keyboards. That's why I have a Pok3r hooked up to my iPad whenever I am at work and the tablet can just sit in one fixed place all day.

The Surface Pro is a failure of a product for me personally. I don't want a laptop pretending to be a tablet. I don't want a laptop period. I love my iPad and am intrigued by the iPad Pro only because I am hoping it will inspire third parties to start making USB docking stations again so I can hook up my Pok3r without having to go through the Lightning port and without constantly dismissing the "Can not use device" alert (which is a complete lie anyway).

[Muirium]

The iPad Pro does have a lot of appeal. I'm looking to get an iPhone 6s Plus when I'm in America this winter (to replace my low end combo of iPhone 4s and iPad 1) so it's not really on my list. But the stylus and that display… yeah, I'd never say no! Just don't have the North American dinars for it. I'll make do with its little brother for the while.

Apple's own keyboard dock for the iPad Pro doesn't look much to me (especially at that price: above the fancy wireless stylus!?) but the new zero insertion port they added to the iPad for it is immensely promising. All us lot are really looking for is a Bring Your Own Keyboard style stand, which provides its own USB port at the base, while propping up the big iPad. That'd be an invitation for my (Phosphorglow USB controller equipped) SSK, if not my HHKB. I'd love the convenience of a display right beside my keyboard for travel, that isn't a crappy laptop chiclet board. And this is just the kind of thing that will get me back on the iPad when I can.

But there is a difference for sure between portable and pocketable computing. I type fine enough on either, but only one is always out there with me. The phone in my pocket is tied with my desktop workstation as the vital machine for me. Things in between must be specialised to justify the bother.

[Halvar]

I have a small Windows convertible (Asus Transformer T100TA) and have to say it's the best type of computer I can imagine when I'm on the road for holiday or visiting friends or family. It's mostly (90%) used as a tablet for internet surfing, watching videos and reading, but if I really need, I can plug in the keyboard part and use it as a PC (for example to do some work-related stuff or look after my forum or write a longer forum post). I like to have that option.

On the other hand, I have a conventional laptop at work, and if I travel for work I take that one with me of course. In this case, it would be very nice if I was able to use this as a tablet, too, when I'd like to read or watch a movie. I definitely won't take both of them with me, so a touchscreen and the possibility to take off the keyboard part is definitely a plus in a modern laptop for me.

In other words, yes, a light tablet and a full laptop are two different categories of devices with different purposes and with the need for different UIs, but nevertheless, if I can use the same hardware to work with both touch apps and mouse programs, that's definitely a big plus for me. I prefer the Windows/Ubuntu way of making the same hardware usable as both. Apple makes this impossible by using two different OSs, which was smart in 2010 in order to bring their point across and make the iPad the king of cool tablet apps (and have it not compete with Windows back then), but I don't think this strict separation will be the way into the future.

The Surface Pro is too expensive for a three-year invest, but I'll definitely opt for a convertible if I have a say in my next work laptop.

I'd say that Windows 10 is still too desktop-oriented for touch use as well. It is indeed a compromise. If my tablet didn't have support for a pen, I would have been completely lost. A pen is needed in practice for using Windows in tablet mode and anyone who is selling Windows tablets without any should be ashamed of themselves.

I don't agree with that at all from my experience. Maybe it depends on your screen resolution and which programs you use. Which use cases are you talking about?

[zslane]

I'm fortunate in that I don't travel for work, nor do I work when I travel. I have no need for a desktop OS anywhere except when sitting down to do real work at my place of employment or on complex projects at home. When I am away from either, I have no need for a computer except to keep me in contact with the Internet.

Now, my iPhone would be okay for that, but I find its tiny display and lack of proper keyboard interface frustrating (I do not type with my thumbs...I touch-type with all my fingers, thankyouverymuch). Hence the iPad. The perfect mobile Internet and entertainment device. The only thing it lacks is proper USB support (for external keyboards, that is). I could try a bluetooth mechanical, but I don't want yet another device that needs frequent charging.