Scottish Independence

[andrewjoy]

It's a map which shows where people make money. In the blue part, they make lots and want to keep it. In the red parts, they want more of what the blue part is having.

Blue = rich tory w*****s

Red = nice people

[webwit]

Blue is idiots who vote for their masters from the 1% who have demographically targeted them, so they think their masters will actually work for their interests instead of use their power to protect their own group's interests.

Red is idiots who vote for their masters from the 1% who have demographically targeted them, so they think their masters will actually work for their interests instead of use their power to protect their own group's interests.

[seebart]

I also see a little green and yellow in there !

Green = alternative highlandish outbacks

Yellow = militant monarchists

[7bit]

Since when are Liberalists Monarchists?

[seebart]

Anything is possible in Scotland.

[Muirium]

They are, actually. The yellows are (too-posh to be nasty) Liberals. Too left wing to vote Tory, but too well off to understand a word that comes out of a regular Labour politician's mouth. I live in one of those seats although a thoroughly red corner of it. After profiting from the opposition to Iraq (where both blue and red supported Bush) Liberals signed a deal with the devil in 2010, putting the Tories back in power after 13 years. Most of their voters are appalled and have kicked the party again and again ever since. They will likely be hammered next year. The Scottish parliament was almost cleaned out of them entirely in 2011 — they won zero seats in mainland Scotland! — and they went from 1st to 5th place in Edinburgh council after a similar loss of the vast majority of their vote. They're so unpopular, they're not even campaigning for the No side of the referendum, as they know people will do precisely the opposite through spite!

The green seats in Scotland, meanwhile, are SNP. Stupid really as the SNP's colour is yellow (while the Liberals are actually yellow-orange). But they look like "Other" to London anyway. They're the ones Scotland threw into power in 2011 and pushed for the referendum. The current Scottish Parliament:


Someone didn't send Orkney and Shetland the memo…

@Webwit: Oddly enough, the worst places to live (crime, intimidation, urban desolation and post-industrial decay) are where the most people are "too smart" to vote…

As far as I know, whatever way our referendum goes, Scotland's still sending MPs to London next May. I have a feeling they'll be more peripheral than ever, even if we vote No. Britain's likely seen its last Scottish prime minister (or Welsh one).

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It's a map which shows where people make money. In the blue part, they make lots and want to keep it. In the red parts, they want more of what the blue part is having.

That's quite concerning if London is doing that badly.

[webwit]

Big cities aren't doing bad (by default), but are a magnet for large amounts of people who want what the blue part is having.

[baldgye]

This is the first time I've seen anyone pro-independent Scotland. As an English guy my parents live in Scotland and would sell up and move back if it goes independent, but one thing I've never been 100% on is how an independent Scotland would work, financially and how or why that would be better than it is now?

I mean, you wouldn't get into the eurozone, Germany has made that clear, so you wouldn't use the Euro. You couldn't use the pound because it would do damage to our economy. I know about North Sea oil and whiskey but other than that, isn't the only other big earner building English warships, and wouldn't we move that back to England?


To be honest I've never really seen this as anything other than a political move for Scotland to gain more power in the House of Commons, which is why I'm surprised to see people pro independence

[webwit]

If I was Scottish and read that fear-mongering crap from the invaders like our country is their bitch, I'd definitely vote pro-independent.

[scottc]

If I was Scottish and read that fear-mongering crap from the invaders like our country is their bitch, I'd definitely vote pro-independent.

Well put.

[baldgye]

If I was Scottish and read that fear-mongering crap from the invaders like our country is their bitch, I'd definitely vote pro-independent.

Lol it's fear mongering to ask honest questions?
Also I don't know that I or any of my relatives could be considered invaders, when did the invasion happen again and who was it that won? Pretty sure that back then my 'family' was in Scotland where my surname originates.

[andrewjoy]

I think there is a bit of fear mongering, but i also think there are questions that need answering , on both sides.

[webwit]

I've seen that strategy/fallacy many times. Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, etc. Oh how these countries would be economically punished for not joining the EU or the Euro (Sweden). Then afterwards, when you see they are doing fine and not paying for failed Greek banks, and you don't hear the people who claimed all this economic damage, you realize all that scare-mongering wasn't really based on any fundamental economic knowledge or research. It's just words, backed up by nothing, created out of thin air for entirely different purposes. I.e. it's not a genuine worry about Scotland's economy, it's just that the English don't want to give it up, and by lack of real arguments, they create some which cannot be substantiated.

[baldgye]

I only brought it up because it's one of the many arguments I've heard against it. I don't have intermit knowledge of Scotland's economy or past similar events I simply asked the question and gave it some context. But I guess that makes me fair game for random attacks and belittling.

Personally I think the breakup of groups between countries is sad and that we should be able to work together and get along. Not much fear mongering in that sentiment is there? No.

[Findecanor]

If Scotland gains independence, it could be an opportunity to remake the election process. I find the English system with majority votes in one-man constituencies to less democratic than it needs to be. Proportional voting for parties is better, but I think that even better would be a chained system of votes where each voter can have a first choice, a second choice, etc.
If the first choice does not get into the parliament (because of quantization to number of available seats), the vote would go to the second choice, which may or may not nudge the vote for that party getting one more seat.

That way, people would not be afraid to vote for small parties, and other parties than the established ones would get the opportunity to rise.

[Muirium]

The voting system you describe, Findecanor, has a name: Single Transferrable Vote. It's used in Ireland very effectively, and has been for a century or so as I understand. STV works quite nicely for electing presidents as well as parliaments. People voting in Florida in 2000 could have voted 1 for Nader and 2 for Gore and spared us all a lot of chaos! (Mind if Gore's own bloody home state had voted for him, he would have won despite Florida. But we've been through all this before…)

Unfortunately, Britain is guaranteed to keep its dodgy voting system. The (dirty turncoat) Liberals demanded a referendum on voting reform when they went into coalition with the Tories in 2010 (the first coalition government in London in many generations) and the voters duly rewarded them with this:



The result was a big fuck you to Nick Clegg. But also killed any idea of ditching first past the post for a long, long time. The idea of perpetual coalition governments disgusts most people, from the little taste of it they've gotten from this one.

As for Baldy's questions for an independent Scotland, they are indeed the thrust of the No campaign. "Can you promise this? Can you guarantee that?" Of course not! Politics, especially international politics, is a dirty game and nothing is truly certain. But flip the question around: can London promise us no government spending cuts forever? Can they promise not to enter any more criminal wars? Wars typically fought, as you tangentially noted, by a disproportionately Scottish force. Can they promise to never mess around with our Scottish Parliament, which relies completely on London's whim as it was created? No matter what? Even once those loonies from UKIP join forces with the Tories in some years from now? Can we have this in writing?

England is 10x the population of Scotland. So even with dodgy gerrymandered seats, there's no way we can ever have decisive power over our own wellbeing at Westminster. Well, not unless you guys agree to a reformed House of Lords that's a quarter Scots, quarter Welsh, quarter Northern Irish and just a quarter English! As if. Even then, there's a certain reassurance that comes from a parliament for Scots which is 100% by Scots.

Polls say English living in Scotland are 80-20 against independence. That sounds about right, speaking to the ones I know. (My English mum is adamantly in the 20%!) English friends of mine just don't fundamentally get why we'd want our own sovereignty. It seems as ludicrious to them as independence for Cornwall, or Chippenham. I suppose independence for India did in 1945. And for the American Colonies in 1776. What ever is the point? It all depends on your perspective.

[webwit]

But I guess that makes me fair game for random attacks and belittling.

Drama queen I wasn't attacking you but the arguments which you apparently parroted from politicians or movie stars. "The economy" is such a useful argument for a wide variety of purposes. This is because it's such a soft "science", if you take a premise like raise interest rate, one economist can argue it will be bad for the economy, and one can argue it's good, and there's no third guy who can say, oh, wait guys, I can calculate the answer by just applying the laws of economics. This combined with the fear that comes from it, makes it a perfect attack tool. The Scots get suckered right into it, so I suspect they'll vote No. It's almost like a religious argument, where one side says "This God of ours exists!" and then takes it as a given until the other side proves their God doesn't exist. So instead of calling it out as a bullshit premise, the Scottish pro-camp must now prove it ain't bad for the economy.

[baldgye]

But I guess that makes me fair game for random attacks and belittling.

Drama queen I wasn't attacking you but the arguments which you apparently parroted from politicians or movie stars. "The economy" is such a useful argument for a wide variety of purposes. This is because it's such a soft "science", if you take a premise like raise interest rate, one economist can argue it will be bad for the economy, and one can argue it's good, and there's no third guy who can say, oh, wait guys, I can calculate the answer by just applying the laws of economics. This combined with the fear that comes from it, makes it a perfect attack tool. The Scots get suckered right into it, so I suspect they'll vote No. It's almost like a religious argument, where one side says "This God of ours exists!" and then takes it as a given until the other side proves their God doesn't exist. So instead of calling it out as a bullshit premise, the Scottish pro-camp must now prove it ain't bad for the economy.

Sorry, I had the audacity to post an opinion on GH recently and only ever got berated and belittled because of it and so am a little over-sensitive atm

But I don't think that having to prove that it would be fine economically would be a bad thing? Like I said my stance on the matter comes from (I assume) a fairly liberal pov where I feel like we should all be able to work together and get along to fight real issues in the world (It's why I'm also pro EU).

I have no real stake in Scotland specifically but my parents do and are worried and Economics are brought up a lot so I was simply asking what people who are pro, thought about it.
The biggest issue I thought that would effect the votes would be the fact that Uni is free in Scotland, if they got independence wouldn't that have to be taken away and replaced with a system similar to that in England?

[Muirium]

I'm not a campaigner, but there's plenty of material addressing (but not "answering" your unanswerable) questions online, like this by the Yes camp:

http://www.scotreferendum.com/questions-and-answers/

Free education is a pretty sacred human right here. Tony Blair stole it away in 1997 and we had to re-institute it ourselves, so my guess is that's quite safe even if other things had to go to fund it. I don't understand how the English put up with tuition fees. They're an outrageous personal tax on underprivileged people trying to improve themselves. But then I don't really understand the draw to voting Tory, in all honesty either. Pity it was Labour that did it!

Other large sectors in Scotland's economy include renewable energy (windiest coast in Europe, and lots of waves), a much larger share of the total UK tourism industry than we get back in taxes, and if all else fails we could start making Model Ms again…

[baldgye]

It's a human right to have free education to degree level?

I was wondering/hoping you had some links etc to some more independent sites/resources, hence why I brought this up here with people pro indi... I trust no politicians from any side of the fence, no matter the country, they are career lairs its essentially there job to be good at lying.

[seebart]

WOW this is getting very tense and serious here. I like to keep it light by cracking a joke or two, but I guess that's not easy here. Also I am not Scottish or British, therefore less attached. Some of you sound like joining the EU is a great accomplishment for anyone, trust me it's not and I'm German!

[Muirium]

It's a human right to have free education to degree level?

In Scotland: yes. So long as you can pass the tests and are able. And, of course, that you want it. The whole country benefits from you operating at your full expertise, rather than taking someone else's low paid job.

Weird, aren't we?

@Seebart: Ah, just the squabbles we're always up to… down in London! In Scotland it's a settled matter. You've got to be damn right wing here to argue for proles being kept in their place.

[baldgye]

Sorry late edited my post (watching GP2).

About Uni being free, I don't have a problem with the concept, tbh I'm pretty fucking jealous.. I'd be 40k richer if we had a similar system. But Thanks to Tony a Uni degree isn't worth shit anymore so I'm in the shitter debt wise and not any better than someone without a degree 20-30 years prior. But I feel this is a bit off topic though you can't take someone elses job, if you get the job, its your job

WOW this is getting very tense and serious here. I like to keep it light by cracking a joke or two, but I guess that's not easy here. Also I am not Scottish or British, therefore less attached. Some of you sound like joining the EU is a great accomplishment for anyone, trust me it's not and I'm German!

Sorry I didn't mean to make it tense haha

[seebart]

Oh no apologies, it's good to have an argument. And this is one serious subject, that's for sure.

I'm sure this vote will bring change to Scotland, either way it goes. I don't think Scotland will slide into a Greek financial disarray in independence. It might get difficult for a while and people will have to adapt. Joining the EU could bring the biggest problems upon Scotland.

[Muirium]

About Uni being free, I don't have a problem with the concept, tbh I'm pretty fucking jealous.. I'd be 40k richer if we had a similar system. But Thanks to Tony a Uni degree isn't worth shit anymore so I'm in the shitter debt wise and not any better than someone without a degree 20-30 years prior.

Does it do the country any better that you're up to your ears in debt? And that I'm not? Some country!

Some of you sound like joining the EU is a great accomplishment for anyone, trust me it's not and I'm German!

Attitudes about the EU vary a lot depending on where you are, as well. In Britain, especially the blue bits of England, the public is pretty fierce about wanting out entirely. I blame it on Rupert Murdoch and this weird sense that the world really gives a toss what the British Empire thinks. Even united, Britain is as peripheral as possible to Europe. If they could only tow the place west of Ireland…

England's voting a lot lately (in Euro and local elections) for a little party (UKIP) that's bonkers enough to make some of the right wing nutjobs in Holland and Poland smile! Up here, those bastards really give us the shits. They stink of Thatcher. One of them just pipped in at last place as Scotland's MEP (goes to show how many old and, yes, English migrants vote in those pointless Euro elections) and he couldn't even be fucked to live in Scotland, the nation he now represents! He's a bit of a character, at least, casting Salmond as a crazed (black?) Robert Mugabe picking on (white farmers?) British migrants. Uh huh?

I'm all for a strong, united Europe myself. But the EU is nothing like that vision. The individual member state's leaders run the whole show, the institutions in Brussels-Strasbourg-Brussels-Strasbourg-STAY STILL DAMN YOU! are a pointless sham, and America still doesn't even bother to try calling "Europe" rather than wondering what's the number.

All that said, I think leaving the EU, which you guys will surely do someday, isn't any good. Well, maybe it would be good for Europe! It's at best neutral to the post-imperial fantasy that Washington relies on London to understand the rest of the world. (They don't, they are perfectly capable of misunderstanding it by themselves!) We need to reform this sonofabitch. By being inside, and by being ourselves.

[baldgye]

Sorry, I'm not that interested in the argument; England vs Scotland or vice versa, was just hoping for additional information and insight as like I said, I'd not come across pro-independent supporter(s) before.

[seebart]

"But the EU is nothing like that vision. The individual member state's leaders run the whole show..."

Exactly, Brussels is a self governing financial mammoth with little real pull, and little real political outcome. We have plenty of people here in Germany that truly want out, even some in Merkel's party. But that's not happening anytime. It's non reversible for Germany.

[Muirium]

Indeed. Can't really see the point in a European Union that's as permanently divided. We're either a leading force for change in the world, or we're not. Right now, the economic side is the only practical unity in effect. I dare say it helped in 2008. Economic black holes in Iceland and Greece, with maybe neutron stars (to strain the astronomical analogy) in Ireland and Portugal, would be more harm to all of us now than what they cost to shovel money in to jam the hole! Well, what it cost *you*. As Germany is the financier for all Europe!

If I were German, I'd want more power or out. We could use a unified military, with German assets and personnel at its core, to back up our foreign policy concerns about Israel and Russia. Right now, it's handbags all the way down.

[seebart]

Yes Sir, we (Germany) will even finance you (Greece) against your own will at our own financial conditions ! No wonder the older Greek generations are reminded of a certain Austrian fuckface by the name of adolf!