What layout do you use?

[suka]

...On another note, has anyone here tried the Neo 2.0 layout?

Yeah, been there, done that, but converted to AdNW quickly thereafter - it is really another huge step further towards an ergonomic and efficient layout, and I would advise to just give it a try if you're really willing to switch.

Here's my layout (function keys ommited for brevity...):

AdNW-RedTilt-clean-8ca683a4aac4f76e226c78d2b9f55bf8.png (58.34 KiB) Viewed 5988 times

[Sigmoid]

Heh I took the advice and switched to Colemak... My wrists are happy but my brain hurts like hell, lol.

BTW... Is there a way to get a Colemak international layout in OSX? I'd be okay without a full Hungarian layout, just give me dead keys for all the weird accents. Also a Japanese input method over Colemak would be nice haha - it's not even a layout by itself, come on Apple...

Anyone here versed in the dark art that is OSX layouts?

[mjl]

just give me dead keys for all the weird accents.

I use that here https://github.com/jsarenik/Mac-Ompose which gives real compose key functionality. Pretty nice. Now all I need is a Compose keycap (the only one I have is on a terminal keyboard and won't most likely fit an MX switch).

[Mal-2]

Now all I need is a Compose keycap (the only one I have is on a terminal keyboard and won't most likely fit an MX switch).

You could use a relegendable off one of the Cherry G80 boards, or one intended for an Xkeys product since they use MX-compatible mounts on their clicky metal dome switches. Xkeys would probably even sell them to you individually, though they'd probably charge too much. (They make solid, well-engineered but expensive products.)

[Mal-2]

I never did update: Although I would consider the Colemak experiment successful (it was starting to make sense, and it was proving physically comfortable), I've gone back to Dvorak. Only now, it's in a matrix format like this:



How long did it take to get used to the matrix layout? That depends on your definition. If you mean how long did it take to get back up to speed, that was nearly immediate. I adjusted within hours, once I put the "real keys" on this keyboard. I found touch-typing on relegendable keys to be virtually impossible, because there is no perception of space between them. It's like trying to identify the individual bricks in a wall when the mortar is almost flush with those bricks.

However, I still do stupid shit like hit the Ctrl-Z or CapsLock key when I'm blindly reaching for Ctrl to do a modifier-assisted mouse click and my hands weren't on the keyboard to start with. I'm fine once I identify my location with the home bumps, but I can no longer identify where I am by using the edges of the keyboard as a reference.

[GuilleAcoustic]

Recently dropped french ISO for Ansi US international. It's a great improvement once you got used to the composed caracters to form accentuated letters. It is even more accent friendly than the french layout. My next step is Colemak or Workman ... and drop rubber domes for buckling springs

[LLRnR]

Recently dropped french ISO for Ansi US international. It's a great improvement once you got used to the composed caracters to form accentuated letters. It is even more accent friendly than the french layout. My next step is Colemak or Workman ... and drop rubber domes for buckling springs

Everybody seems to be composing special characters... am I the only one doing it wrong? I switch as needed between 3 keyboard layouts (US, FR, RO), while the physical layout I use is US ANSI (I can't stand ISO).

[GuilleAcoustic]

Everybody seems to be composing special characters... am I the only one doing it wrong? I switch as needed between 3 keyboard layouts (US, FR, RO), while the physical layout I use is US ANSI (I can't stand ISO).

Composing is very convenient. It offers more characters than our poor french AZERTY: ' + A = Á ... `+ A = À ... ' + C = Ç

All those capital letters are impossible to do in french unless you hold Alt and type their ASCII code. French language tolerates not typing them, but only because it was not convenient when printing text was using this:


(mostly because it resulted in non-uniform characters height).

Edit: Here is a great link discussing about French and accentuated capital letters: http://www.orthotypographie.fr/volume-I ... centuation

[LLRnR]

Composing is very convenient. It offers more characters than our poor french AZERTY: ' + A = Á ... `+ A = À ... ' + C = Ç

I guess you're right. I just never managed to wrap my head around composing. I assigned Caps Lock to be the key to switch between different layouts and haven't looked into other means of inserting special characters, as the ones I need for those 3 languages are available somewhere in the layout.

All those capital letters are impossible to do in french unless you hold Alt and type their ASCII code. French language tolerates not typing them, but only because it was not convenient when printing text was using this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ZoomIn.JPG

(mostly because it resulted in non-uniform characters height).

Almost impossible. Under Linux, I choose the "Alternative" layout for FR (also called oss in the setxkbmap options), which allows me to type É with AltGr+Shift+é, È with AltGr+Shift+è, Ç with AltGr+Shift+ç and À with AltGr+Shift+à. Under Windows, I have no idea; Windows is just for gaming and PowerPoint.

But yeah, I see your point, composing seems comfortable enough if you're used to it.

[GuilleAcoustic]

Almost impossible. Under Linux, I choose the "Alternative" layout for FR (also called oss in the setxkbmap options), which allows me to type É with AltGr+Shift+é, È with AltGr+Shift+è, Ç with AltGr+Shift+ç and À with AltGr+Shift+à. Under Windows, I have no idea; Windows is just for gaming and PowerPoint. :mrgreen:But yeah, I see your point, composing seems comfortable enough if you're used to it.

I'm on the verge to dump Windows for Archlinux. Almost all my games are on Linux, thank you Humble bundle and Steam. Not even talking my productivity tools as they are all Linux native. Didn't know about the OSS, good to know.

But yeah, I see your point, composing seems comfortable enough if you're used to it.

Some short words like été are hard to type at the begining, but it really grew on me quite quickly. Now I have a hard time typing on AZERTY .

I really suggest reading this link, it's very informative about the french typo: http://www.orthotypographie.fr/volume-I ... centuation

[LLRnR]

I'm on the verge to dump Windows for Archlinux. Almost all my games are on Linux, thank you Humble bundle and Steam. Not even talking my productivity tools as they are all Linux native.

Nice, good luck with that. I'm unable to completely dump Windows as there'll always be some games I want to play that do not run under Linux. It's not like I'd have the time to play anyway, but here's hoping I'll manage a playthrough for all of them sometime during this lifetime...

I really suggest reading this link, it's very informative about the french typo: http://www.orthotypographie.fr/volume-I ... centuation

Thanks, that's an interesting read.

[Chyros]

I use all layouts, but I prefer one with a bigass Enter key and two-unit backspace. The \ key's best place is next to Z, otherwise in place of a windows key (or app key!) or next to the right shift. Hate ANSI, genuinely don't see the point of it.

[scottc]

Big-ass enter? Not just ISO enter?

[Chyros]

The ISO one is fine, and I much prefer the ISO one to the ANSI one, which is horrendous, but I prefer the big-ass one even more than the ISO one. I guess I just really don't want to think about where to hit an enter key xD .

[Mal-2]

The ISO one is fine, and I much prefer the ISO one to the ANSI one, which is horrendous, but I prefer the big-ass one even more than the ISO one. I guess I just really don't want to think about where to hit an enter key xD .

Personally I like ANSI not because it's what I grew up with (I actually grew up with Big-Ass Enter as the norm), but because I like not having to reach very far for Enter. The ISO Enter is further away. The benefit is that \| is brought closer. Guess what, I only use that key when typing paths. I use enter every paragraph or even every single entry.

Also, I want that movement to be on one axis only. I don't reach out and up for Enter, I just reach directly to the right. That's where the ANSI Enter key sits, and it is most tolerant of my tendency to over-reach faraway keys.

Now if Enter sat directly to the right of the last letter (S in my case), it would negate the over-reaching issue, and there would be practically no difference between a vertical Enter and a horizontal one. I'm using a vertical Enter right now, but I keep hitting Scroll Lock to the right of it. Rotating it 90 degrees and relocating Scroll Lock accordingly should solve the problem, so I'll probably make this quite minor change shortly.

[Hermith]

That is probably the best argument to be made for the ANSI enter, but it's pretty much irrelevant as long as people have backspace in it's normal location. I've moved the backspace to caps lock location and it's probably the best change I ever did.

[Chyros]

The ISO one is fine, and I much prefer the ISO one to the ANSI one, which is horrendous, but I prefer the big-ass one even more than the ISO one. I guess I just really don't want to think about where to hit an enter key xD .

Personally I like ANSI not because it's what I grew up with (I actually grew up with Big-Ass Enter as the norm), but because I like not having to reach very far for Enter. The ISO Enter is further away. The benefit is that \| is brought closer. Guess what, I only use that key when typing paths. I use enter every paragraph or even every single entry.

It IS useful to have the Enter key closer, which is why I like the big-ass one so much. I tend to hit \ a lot on ANSI, though it's been getting better of late (I do have several ANSI boards that I use regularly). I only really use \ when using DOS (which, admittedly, is fairly frequently) but it's equally close or even closer next to the Z and I prefer it there, because it's used frequently after : which is on the right side of the board (faster to follow up with a left key).

[Cafeine]

I used classic FR ISO (Azerty) for years. But my love for mechanical keyboards quickly made me switch to ANSI since ISO choice was so poor. Topre is life. I also mainly use Mac OS for writing / working since 2004 (PC gamer here, bred on MSX...) I decided to use the FR Azerty "mac style" on every OS. But it's still azerty and SUXX BIG TIME. For 6 months I researched something to switch too: Int. QWERTY like GuilleAcoustic (salut ! ), BEPO (modern take on a french dvorak) etc. Nothing was perfect. I'm touch typing (in my very peculiar style) at 80 wpm without effort on my crappy layout but writing in markdown is not efficient because whoever designer AZERTY hated [ & ] and it's a PAIN to use, like many other symbols.

TL;DR : using AZERTY mac version with remapped keys for #@ & <> on ANSI keyboards. Not totally happy about it but found nothing really better. Yet.

[Anticube]

I use
-ANSI hardware layout because of programming but I miss a tall enter useful when you are moving mouse and need to press it with the right hand thumb.
-QWERTY as caps position, because in Italian we use so much vowels that in DVORAK my left hand would go on fire. Then I could consider COLEMAK and others, but at the end, since I use different languages, what is true in English or Italian, is later not true for the other languages. And since I move to other standard pc, I save myself an headache.
-as character keyboard layout I use International English so that I can compose any European accent.

[Mal-2]

I use
-ANSI hardware layout because of programming but I miss a tall enter useful when you are moving mouse and need to press it with the right hand thumb.

That's what Numpad Enter is good for, assuming you have one.

-QWERTY as caps position, because in Italian we use so much vowels that in DVORAK my left hand would go on fire. Then I could consider COLEMAK and others, but at the end, since I use different languages, what is true in English or Italian, is later not true for the other languages. And since I move to other standard pc, I save myself an headache.
-as character keyboard layout I use International English so that I can compose any European accent.

I decided to roll my own keyboard layout. The only change is that right Alt is now AltGr, otherwise it behaves just like any American user would expect. I hide further functionality by turning AltGr+`, AltGr+~, Ctrl+[, Ctrl+{, Ctrl+], and Ctrl+} into dead keys. That's where I hide all my accents. Thus, the net loss is one key (right Alt) which is a duplicate anyhow. Otherwise everything works exactly as expected.

The Dvorak or Colemak remapping I do on the keyboard side. The extended function I do on the OS side.

[Anticube]

In fact I went TKL, vertical enter is the only thing I miss.
Me too I don't exactly like QWERTY,
and I searched a better layout for me, I thought a lot of,
and ended up to the conclusion that even if standards are not optimized,
they are everywhere immediately accessible so for me it was ephemeral to go to my personal choice,
because of no evident BIG benefit.
But it's good to have choices as it's good to know many languages.
I think qwerty is like english, you have to know it, you need it,
then if you know other languages that's good too,
but it depends on your job how much professional you need to speak that language.
many other thing I would like to use as more efficent
starting from the operating system, that nowadays are just all caos (all of them).
Remapping follow the same thought,
I dedicated so much time to analize a good solution,
I thought eurkey
http://eurkey.steffen.bruentjen.eu/start.html
was the best, but then again you have to work to install, distribute...
So at the end International English is everywhere yet.
I found my "optimal middle" was

[davkol]

I fail to see how "immediate availability" is beneficial in any meaningful way.

Okay, so I can use someone else's system relatively efficiently in one way. That's totally awesome. Except it isn't.

• I don't have my data there. I can't access it, because of security.
• The software, that I need, isn't there. If it is, the configuration is usually absolutely idiotic, e.g., a web browser without AdBlock, but with a bunch of useless toolbars.
• Most people or public computers have anti-ergonomic setups and no concept of hygiene, when it comes to computing peripherals.

[Anticube]

Excuse if I mistake, I'm not native english speaker,
but I wrote "accessible", not "available", I'm not sure I understood what you wrote,
I was speaking about design (hardware and software layout too)
and for me yes that has a value, just in that ugly cases you mention.
I remember that in our university there were students and teachers from many different countries,
machines were obviously all ANSI QWERTY dressed.
On the contrary side, In tourist internet cafè you always find local.
Now at work I remotely connect to hundreds machines per month,
different versions of linux and windows,
western and eastern europe, japanese, and triple layout of switzerland.
So it's not that "I can use", but that "I must use" another machine.
When I searched for a better choice,
it was difficult to accept that the best choice for me was the worst layout.
I would like to consider colemak because I like it for just english language,
but I'm going old and I would need physiotherapy to learn it.
Now to answer to OP, I make a mental exercise: would I teach to my little baby colemak?
as I implicitly wrote on previous post, yes!, but only as a secondary layout.

[davkol]

The de facto standards aren't particularly accessible.

I too connect to local/remote machines with various national layouts that vary across different operating systems. I have to thank TypeMatrix for making the USB TM2030 model. It's saved me from going batshit crazy… at least in this regard.

Yes, basically every modern desktop OS is distributed with US QWERTY. However, it also comes with DSK (an ANSI standard since 1982), and I can use *any* layout in hardware, as long as non-ASCII characters aren't required.

[ryebread761]

I use Dvorak with a standard ANSI keyboard. I switched from QWERTY because up until then I was a hunt and peck typer, and I could not break that habbit with QWERTY. I learned to touch type on Dvorak and am much happier now. Seeing as I couldn't touch type on QWERTY prior to the switch, and wanted to get far, far away from it and the bad habits associated with it Dvorak seemed a little bit more appropriate than Colemak. Colemak also isn't included in the list of out-of-the-box layouts that comes with Windows 7, and therefore is much more difficult to use at school, where switching to Dvorak has always been a snap.

[Mal-2]

I use Dvorak with a standard ANSI keyboard.

If you get a chance, you should see how a matrix keyboard feels. It's not as big a shift as you might expect, and it makes some things much easier. It also gets rid of nearly all space-wasting 2U keys.

I'm willing to bet you have the keyboard centered in front of you. That means the alpha area is somewhat to your left, and this helps you unconsciously adjust for the stagger. If you do try a matrix, make sure the alpha keys are straight in front of you. This shouldn't push the mouse out any further, since matrix keyboards are narrower in general: 18U for Cherry, and 16U for Tipro. Now when you extend in the natural direction of your arms, you'll go straight up the keyboard rather than up and to the left. The matrix will then feel perfectly natural and you'll be used to it in a matter of hours, if not sooner.

Switching back (for someone else's hardware for instance) isn't a big problem either, just put the normal staggered keyboard off to your left again.

My overall typing speed probably has not increased significantly from the switch, mostly because I can only type as fast as I can think of what to say. The difference is that I now tend to have faster, shorter (and somewhat noisier) bursts of typing, with longer pauses in between. If I could think faster, I might actually see some real benefit, but at ~90 wpm I'm already going about as fast as I can while still retaining a flow that sounds reasonably articulate.

[ryebread761]

I use Dvorak with a standard ANSI keyboard.

If you get a chance, you should see how a matrix keyboard feels. It's not as big a shift as you might expect, and it makes some things much easier. It also gets rid of nearly all space-wasting 2U keys.

I'm willing to bet you have the keyboard centered in front of you. That means the alpha area is somewhat to your left, and this helps you unconsciously adjust for the stagger. If you do try a matrix, make sure the alpha keys are straight in front of you. This shouldn't push the mouse out any further, since matrix keyboards are narrower in general: 18U for Cherry, and 16U for Tipro. Now when you extend in the natural direction of your arms, you'll go straight up the keyboard rather than up and to the left. The matrix will then feel perfectly natural and you'll be used to it in a matter of hours, if not sooner.

Switching back (for someone else's hardware for instance) isn't a big problem either, just put the normal staggered keyboard off to your left again.

My overall typing speed probably has not increased significantly from the switch, mostly because I can only type as fast as I can think of what to say. The difference is that I now tend to have faster, shorter (and somewhat noisier) bursts of typing, with longer pauses in between. If I could think faster, I might actually see some real benefit, but at ~90 wpm I'm already going about as fast as I can while still retaining a flow that sounds reasonably articulate.

I would be interested to try a matrix keyboard, though the only way I would be able to is by building custom, as I don't know anyone who has one nor do I have a keyboard that I can easily convert to a matrix format. It is something to keep in mind for the future though. What you said about the keyboard alignment to your body and moving your arms forward/backward instead of side to side makes sense.

[Spikebolt]

Standard QWERTY, ISO, Portuguese layout.

[Mal-2]

I would be interested to try a matrix keyboard, though the only way I would be able to is by building custom, as I don't know anyone who has one nor do I have a keyboard that I can easily convert to a matrix format. It is something to keep in mind for the future though. What you said about the keyboard alignment to your body and moving your arms forward/backward instead of side to side makes sense.

You won't find many (possibly any) Tipro keyboards here in North America, but Cherry G86-634xx series keyboards are pretty easy to find. They're much cheaper (less than half price) on eBay than over normal retail markets, sometimes even NIB. Unfortunately they come with 100% relegendable keys which are HORRIBLE for trying to touch type. They feel like a uniform wall of key. The only cheap solution for that is to buy a sacrificial cheap G86 board like a 62xxx and steal the keys off it. SP does make G86 keys, but this will almost certainly cost you more than buying a donor board and they won't be the awesome-feeling POM material.

I got my 63401 for about $53 shipped. I've seen the 62xxx boards around $25, including some shipping from Canada. You might want to get the cheaper board first to make sure you like the feel, they're thocky 55 to 60g domes.

[Cafeine]

I have a question: anyone using International QWERTY on a HHKB? And writing in French sometimes?