HHKB2 vs Realforce 88U vs CM Novatouch

[Spikebolt]

I've decided that I wanna try out a Topre board and I'm currently selling some of my cherry mx stuff in order to afford one (shameless plug: check the Marketplace!!). Having never tried a Topre board I'm quite undecided on which one to get. I was wondering if anyone who has experience with these boards could give me some feedback. Currently I have 3 (non-final) studied options:

- CM Novatouch: supports cherry mx keycaps and has an ISO layout. I already own several thick PBT keycaps so this seems like a good option. I read that a stock Novatouch doesn't feel as solid as a stock Realforce, but I wonder about the feeling a Novatouch with thick PBT keycaps.

- Realforce 88UB: has an ISO layout and easy availability to EU from keyboardco. I read that this is a solid choice for Topre keyboard and I'm inclined to get one if the CM Novatouch is noticeable worse.

- HHKB2: everytime I see this board I wanna get it. I don't why, I just love it. I feel like getting one with blanks and dyeing the modifiers red. Of course there is this huge logistical problem to get one and the constant fear to not get used to the layout (special since I use some latino special characters a lot: ç`´~^). Rationally speaking, the Realforce is probably a better choice.

What are your thoughts guys? Should I be considering a different board?

[Muirium]

I've tried all three, and own two NovaTouches (one ISO and one ANSI, thanks to beta testing them for CM) and a brand new HHKB that just arrived a few days ago. They've all got their pros and cons.

Here's a long story about the NovaTouch:

http://deskthority.net/review-f45/a-tal ... t8968.html

In short: it rattles. Other Topres do not. So the NovaTouch doesn't sound right at all, and the feel isn't quite there either. MX compatibility, and easy availability, is huge though.

The Realforce is the safest bet. Keyboardco does them for a sky high price. It's cheaper to import from Japan and pay customs. But then returns are harder if you have trouble. Something that would put me off Keyboardco is they don't do the 55 gram model. Now I have a 45g NovaTouch and HHKB I'd like to try the heavier, springier weight of Topre.

And then the HHKB. It's my favourite! I've been after one for a couple of years, but you're right: they're hard to buy in Europe. I eventually went for a bizarre 2/3 of the way around the world option with mine, which landed me a sweet price. But there's a few used ones in good condition currently for sale on DT, and I'd go for one of those if I hadn't!

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/put ... ml#p207103

Another Topre made board for your consideration is the Leopold FC660C. Some people like it the best of all. I haven't tried one.

[noobie94]

If you are searching a 45g 88UB I would offer mine. I bought it about 2 weeks ago but somehow I went back using my fullsize Realforce

[Spikebolt]

@Muirium thanks for the very detailed response, I think you just rulled out the Novatouch option. I forgot about the FC660C, it also seems very good but hard to get my hands on.

I'll drop you a PM noobie, thought it make take a while before I make my mind

[Hypersphere]

@Spikebolt: Rather than repeating details about the HHKB Pro 2 here, if you are interested, you could take a look at one of my reviews:
http://deskthority.net/review-f45/final ... t6553.html

In short, I really like 60% form factor, overall symmetry and aesthetics. The thing that kept me from trying it sooner was being fearful of the layout. However, I adapted very quickly, and now I remap all other keyboards to something as close as I can get to the HHKB layout.

I've also tried the Novatouch, and I agree with Mu. I still have it as one of my vehicles for displaying Cherry-compatible keycaps, but I seldom use it.

The Leopold FC660C is a solid board, but at the time I bought mine, it was difficult to find replacement keycaps. In addition, the layout was not quite to my liking. After trying many layouts, I've discovered that I like 60% and TKL, but I tend not to like anything in between. Consequently, I gave my FC660C away.

After getting the HHKB Pro 2, I decided I wanted to try a Topre board that had uniform 55g plate-mounted switches, and so I got a RF 87ub 55g. I like the appearance and solid sound and feel of the board, but I prefer the 60% form factor and intrinsic layout of the HHKB Pro 2. I've also tried a uniform 45g RF, and I like it almost as much as the 55g. I've never tried a variable RF, but I anticipate that any Topre switch lighter than 45g would feel too light for me.

At present, at home I am rotating between two boards: (1) a HHKB Pro 2 with blue alphas and black spacebar and mods; and (2) a KBP V60 Matias Click switch with white alphas from an IBM 5140 and black spacebar and mods from Matias.

At work, I am currently rotating between two boards: (1) a RF 87ub 55g with blue alphas and black spacebar and mods; and (2) an IBM SSK.

It would be difficult for me to settle on just one keyboard, but if I had to choose just one, I would probably go for the HHKB Pro 2. But then, what about the HHKB Pro 2 Type S? Stay tuned for a forthcoming review from Muirium!

I hope that these comments will help you with your decision.

[Spikebolt]

@Hypersphere: thanks for the extensive reply, really appreciate it. I read your HHKB review and it seems we both share that weird "i must get it" mystique. I've also noticed that you were missing the arrow cluster, a big fear of mine. How do you feel about it now? (also: how do you arrow on HHKB?)

Thanks for your reply, I'm torn between the HHKB and the Realforce.

[Hypersphere]

@Hypersphere: thanks for the extensive reply, really appreciate it. I read your HHKB review and it seems we both share that weird "i must get it" mystique. I've also noticed that you were missing the arrow cluster, a big fear of mine. How do you feel about it now? (also: how do you arrow on HHKB?)

Thanks for your reply, I'm torn between the HHKB and the Realforce.

You are most welcome. Although I thought I would have difficulty adjusting to the swapped Backspace/Backslash and the lack of arrow keys in the primary layer, I adjusted to these things very quickly. Likewise, I almost never use CapsLock, and so reassigning CapsLock as Control and Fn+Tab as CapsLock were also fine.

Regarding arrow keys, at first, I tried some non-default positions in the Fn layer for the arrow keys, such as ijkl or wasd, but these did not seem intuitive to me. When I went back to the default HHKB cursor diamond [;'/ everything clicked, as it were. Now I find a cursor or arrow diamond much more intuitive than an inverted T or any other scheme for arrow keys. Moreover, I like the one-handed access to the arrow keys on the HHKB by hittting Fn with the right pinky and using the index and middle fingers for the [;'/ of the cursor (arrow) diamond.

As I mentioned, now when I use keyboards other than my HHKB, I use Karabiner remapping software on my Mac to remap the keys to something as close as possible to a Mac/HHKB layout. Even when I am using my RF, which of course has a standard set of dedicated arrow keys in an inverted T, I map it so that I have the option of using the HHKB cursor diamond. On the RF, I have swapped "Menu" and Right Control, and reassigned Menu as Fn. This is not quite as good as having the Fn to the right of a shortened Right Shift key, but it is close.

The RF and HHKB are both great keyboards. The RF gives you a known quantity in terms of its standard layout. The HHKB Pro 2 is unique, and if you take to its layout, you will probably love if. If you don't like the HHKB layout, you will be frustrated and wish you had opted for the RF.

The resale value of these boards tends to be high, and so if you cannot decide which one is for you, buy both, try them out, and either keep them both or sell one of them.

If you are intrigued by the HHKB, your mind will never rest until you have tried it.

You should also take a look at these threads:

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/my- ... t5497.html

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/pur ... t5098.html

[seebart]

I own a HHKB and have owned a Realforce. Both are superb in build quality, the RF even more so imo. Have you decided if you want a 60 or a TKL format, that´s quite a diffrence. If you go for a RF then think about what keyweight. They also have a variable which I did not like. Before importing one the long way check our marketplace, there have been quite a few HHKB`S and RF´s on sale recently!

http://deskthority.net/for-sale-f55/rea ... t9788.html

http://deskthority.net/for-sale-f55/hhk ... t9798.html

http://deskthority.net/for-sale-f55/hhk ... t9621.html

[Muirium]

I'd go for Katzensaft's HHKB Type-S with nice extras, Spikey. Especially as Stabilised has just sold.

[seebart]

I'd go for Katzensaft's HHKB Type-S with nice extras, Spikey. Especially as Stabilised has just sold.

yeah that´s the deluxe package, and don´t let yourself be irritated by his disgusting username!

[Muirium]

Sounds like a German sports drink to the rest of us…

[Hypersphere]

I am going to put my Type-S back into my home-office rotation so that I will be thoroughly familiar with it before the Mu review. However, my current thinking is that the Type-S is practically a different species of keyboard from the original HHKB Pro 2 (white printed) or its color and legend variants (white non-printed, black printed, and black non-printed). The sound and feel of the Type-S are quite different from the others (and one would expect the sound to be different to live up to the name and price -- although I understand that the price differential is much less in Japan than it is in the US).

At the moment, I am back to typing on my KBP V60MTS-Click, which (to me) is a bit like typing on a 60% Model F. In fact, I think the V60MTS-Click is even more tactile and louder than my XT or F62. It might seem strange, but I don't mind the noise from my V60, because all of its sounds seem purposeful.

[Muirium]

The review will take a while. I like to know a keyboard well before I open my mouth about it in earnest. And my work desk is currently full of Model F AT insides; a board I'm not quick to close up, after the fight it gave me the other day!

[Spikebolt]

I'd go for Katzensaft's HHKB Type-S with nice extras, Spikey. Especially as Stabilised has just sold.

I believe that one is taken as well

@Hypersphere: Thanks again for the very informative post! I'll keep the marketplace under my eyes while I sell my stuff heh

[Hypersphere]

The review will take a while. I like to know a keyboard well before I open my mouth about it in earnest. And my work desk is currently full of Model F AT insides; a board I'm not quick to close up, after the fight it gave me the other day!

Nevertheless, I just unboxed my Type-S, plugged it in, and I am typing on it now. After the V60 Matias tactile/click and the standard HHKB Pro 2, the sensation of typing on the Type-S is bizarre. It's as if I were wearing earmuffs and gloves (appropriate, because a blizzard has been raging all day here and we have about 12 inches of new snow on the ground with more to come).

The color of the Type-S is jarring to me as well. Very white, like the blanket of new snow outside. I need anti-snow-blindness goggles! My "standard" HHKB Pro was originally the black on black (or officially black on dark gray) variant that I modified by installing black on light blue alphanumeric keycaps from a Topre set.

I hope you are keeping a journal to record your impressions of the Type-S over time. It can be instructive to look back on your initial reactions to see how these compare with later opinions formed after becoming more familiar with the board.

[Muirium]

DT is my journal, as should be all too apparent!

In any case, I'm good at remembering these things. I can remember my adaptation to DanielT's HHKB last year, and my similar first experience of Topre with 002's Realforce, the year before that. Objective things are where my recall's dodgy. Like recognising all HaaTa's boards? Forget it!

Memory is tied to the experience of the moment, I find. I'll remember conversations from decades ago just by walking through the same place they transpired. And sometimes I'll remember what keyboard I wrote something on, for no apparent reason but the memory from my fingers, a trick that gets harder all the time I've more of them.

Anyway, you probably want to know whether I'm giving this board a thumbs up or down. I'm predictable, you'll already know the answer. The details are what matters, and those I'm still in the process of gathering for myself. Experience only comes one way.

[Hypersphere]

God (and the devil) are in the details. Although we predict you will give the Type-S two enthusiastic thumbs up, those who look forward to reading your review are interested in the details and the process you go through to give a keyboard a thorough appraisal.

[matt3o]

I have all the three keyboards in the OP plus the Leopold 660C. On this forum you'll find reviews of everyone of them (and more). This is mine completed with sound comparison.

The long story short is: nobody can tell you which one you'll like

If you ask me... avoid the Novatouch and take the realforce. If you like the 660C layout, take it instead (YMMV).

[Spikebolt]

Thank you all for your great input. I ended up deciding to take noobie's Realforce 88U (hopefully he didn't sell it ).

I decided for the Realforce because he's selling it at a great price. I figured it would be a safer choice than the HHKB because I'm already used to the ISO layout. This way an unfamiliar layout will not distort/have influence on my first experience with Topres. If I really do enjoy the Topres I'll end up buying an HHKB2 along the road.

Many thanks to all of you.

[Muirium]

Solid choice! (And I bet Noobie still has it, as he hasn't made a for sale thread yet.)

The 45g Realforce TKL is a great introduction to Topre. It's essentially right in the middle of the Topre universe. Its switches will feel the same weight as an HHKB or Leopold. Its layout is familiar. And they're easily one of the greatest keyboards available today. A TKL Realforce was the only other item on my list when I considered my HHKB.

[Spikebolt]

Unfortunately the deal fell through

I'll keep an eye on the classifieds, something cool will eventually come up

[macmakkara]

hey guys you have forgot HHKB pro JP variant. I would love to have one with Hasu's controlle because those extra mods :p

[Muirium]

True. Easy to forget the HHKB JP, as it's such an oddball:



Spike's leaning towards the conventional side of the layout spectrum. The HHKB JP is one strange cousin in the family! I didn't consider it worthwhile discussion.

For what its worth: I like the spacebar and the mods. I dislike the arrow cluster. And I can't stand the look of that tiny right Shift. ISO Return is love/hate. (Correct answer: hate.) And don't forget the funny stagger!

[002]

The stagger is just rotten
My only experience with HHKB was with the JP layout and I really owe it to Mr Wada to give the *real* HHKB a chance because after trying the JP I subconsciously associate HHKB with bad feels...

[Muirium]

Topre Enthusiast in search of his first true HHKB. You're like an IBM aficionado without an SSK!

[macmakkara]

I don't know if i like iso/jis enter anymore. I don't have mechanical iso board i have just ss 6gv2 that has big-ass enter and i hate it. Il need to be incontact with hasu cause im interested in his controller for hhkb

[Spikebolt]

That spacebar, though

[Muirium]

Oh, it's the best part. PBT, just like the rest of the caps. Not ABS, like on the ANSI HHKB and Realforces. Their main flaw…

[cookie]

I can't stand ISO anymore :/
The HHKB totally made me incompatible with other keyboards, I don't know if this is a good thing or not Time will show, for now I don't have real downsides becasue of that. But I'd love to see the HHKB Pro3 with split spacebar and programmable controler!

This would be my absolute dream keyboard

I'd say HHKB > 88U > Nova!

[Hypersphere]

I know that some will again accuse me of sacrilege, but my current ranking is as follows:

KBP V60 Matias Quiet ~ KBP V60 Matias Click > HHKB Pro 2 ~ RF 87ub 55g > IBM XT > RF 87ub 45g > HHKB Pro 2 Type-S >>> Novatouch

From my point of view, the only downside to Matias-switch keyboards is the lack of ready availability of dye-sub PBT keycaps for them. Otherwise, the switches themselves are superb!