F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[Ellipse]

The bottom inner assembly is the gold colored part in the photo.

DSC_8481.jpg (830.1 KiB) Viewed 5950 times

[Ludovician]

Does it require a different PCB? I recall hearing something about needing a newer, smaller version of the whatsit controller to fit in the small case.

[vsev]

I would so much, but open source has taken me... so sorry

[bhtooefr]

One thing that worries me about the small case as presented is where the radiuses are. Can the edge that the palms rest on be radiused, for comfort reasons?

Also, my understanding as to why the black caps look the way they do is related to them being part of a failed experiment in doing black pad printed caps. I forget whether the shininess is why they didn't work, or the pad printing being removed is why they're shiny.

[Hypersphere]

The bottom inner assembly is the gold colored part in the photo.

Spoiler:

DSC_8481.jpg

Thanks. I somehow missed seeing this item on the Store site. I suppose the smaller version of the back inner assembly is not yet available (?).

Will you be posting pics/videos of the small-case version of the F62?

[sean4star]

If I get a split backspace, how hard would it be to convert to a standard 2U backspace? Is it just swapping out a spring/flipper for a stabilizer and reconfiguring the controller? Oh, and changing the keycaps of course.

[Ludovician]

Yep, that's all you need to do.

[Ellipse]

Ludovician it will not require a new PCB. I am adjusting the current designs so that they fully accept the newer case. That way you only have to pay $20 for the smaller gold-colored bottom inner assembly piece in the photos, plus the smaller case.

bhtooefr I will look into this. It should be OK. Would people want slightly rounded edges on the top? Any notable other keyboard examples of what you'd be looking for?

Yep hypersphere it hasn't been designed yet. Yes there will be photos but we may be a month or so away from that - not sure yet.

sean4star the only tools you will need is a regular flat/minus head screwdriver and pliers. You open up the case and add a flipper (extra flippers are available in the store if you expect to change your layout, and I may add a flipper or two to everyone's order if there are leftovers, for those who want to change layouts or if a flipper or spring needs to be replaced down the line). I hope to post a disassembly/assembly/repair video in a month or two. Yes you are just taking away or adding a spring and flipper and taking out the stabilizer insert, which can just be pushed out from the reverse side, and then updating the GUI to pick new key functions.

[Ellipse]

We have our first important issue

Unfortunately PayPal has locked my funds as a security precaution (?) given the $30,000+ that came in from the first few days of accepting orders.

Orders are still being accepted through PayPal without issue, so please do get in your order if you haven't already!

I am going to speak with them ASAP and try to resolve it but this could cause a hassle.

I have already fully disclosed to them the product web site, nature of the project, and the increased expected business levels.

It seems like they often release funds only after they are exposed publicly about the specific case and someone has made a noise about the issue by posting about it on a blog.

If anyone has any experience or advice dealing with PayPal or any contacts there, or can offer specific help in another way please let me know.

I don't expect this to put us off schedule though, because at the very worst if it comes down to it, I may need to cancel the PayPal funds and accept payments over credit card or check (your order is not being canceled! This is just the worst-case scenario). It will be inconvenient for everyone unfortunately if this turns out to be the case but we don't have to use PayPal to accept payment online. I'll keep everyone posted though.

So far about 25% of the interest form has paid and many have ordered more keyboards than what they put down in the form - a good thing! The web site has slowed down from the increased traffic but it is still holding up well.

[Hypersphere]

@Ellipse: I hope that changing the F62 PCB to accommodate the smaller case will not adversely affect the characteristics of the standard-size F62. The main objective was to recreate the original F62; it would not be good to jeopardize that goal. If there were any chance of any negative repercussions to the recreated F62, it would be better not to have a smaller case option, even though I would like to have a smaller case option if possible.

[Hypersphere]

@Ellipse: I recently had an issue with PayPal, although on a much smaller scale. I have been using PayPal since about 2011 with no problems. However, recently, for the first time I issued an invoice through PayPal to request payment for some keyboard items. I was not able to accept the payment until contacting PayPal and linking my bank account. Previously, I had linked only my credit card. After several emails and a couple of phone calls, I was able to receive payment on the invoice and my PayPal account was raised to a higher level of transactions. I would anticipate that you might have to go through something similar, but that everything should be resolved satisfactorily.

[Ellipse]

Thanks Hypersphere for the well wishes - I do hope PayPal resolves this hold satisfactorily.

We are actually making the PCB more like the original 4704 design with this change. I had expected for the PCB to stick out the side like with an XT keyboard (for the production PCBs) but now we will be using the ribbon cable approach which moves the through holes to where they are on the original 4704. That way the controller can be tucked below the keyboard instead of requiring the larger area for the controller with the original case. As someone suggested to me, it also offers the benefit that you can replace the controller with a little through hole soldering in the future for another controller 10 or 20 years from now

Below is an original F77 PCB, compared to the prototype PCB whose through holes will be moved about 1 CM inwards like on the original:

20150610_113759 (2).jpg (519.36 KiB) Viewed 5839 times

20150824_231735.jpg (317.72 KiB) Viewed 5839 times

[Hypersphere]

@Ellipse: Thanks for the detailed explanation. It all looks good.

Regarding keyboard orders, I am in the process of ordering an F62 with the standard case. I will hold off ordering a second one with the smaller case until after you have posted pics and perhaps videos of the smaller version.

Is it possible to order extra keycap sets with the keyboards? I would like to have a standard "pearl & pebble" set for a HHKB layout with split Backspace, split Right Shift, Ctrl instead of CapsLock, and reversed Alt and OS keys on the bottom row. It would be good to have just a diamond symbol or "Meta" or "Super" on the 1.50x modifier keys and "Alt" or "Opt" on the 1.00x bottom-row modifiers. Should I just place an individual order with Unicomp, especially given the special key choices?

Regarding shipping, if I order a standard-size F62 followed by a smaller-size F62 when they are ready, should I order them at the same time in order to save a bit on combined shipping?

[Ellipse]

You can order extra sets on the web site to save on shipping, or order directly through Unicomp - up to you. To order a set through me, add up the costs on Unicomp's site and then order the item "extra customizations/keys (in $1 increments) based on what the total comes out to, including items not included in the set like the custom printed keys, space bar, and stabilizer inserts. Each extra key costs from 30 cents for a 1U unprinted key to a few dollars for a custom color printed key.

And there would be no savings on shipping so feel free to order one at a time if you'd prefer.

[photekq]

Ellipse,

Are you willing to mark them as a lower value on customs if we request it?

[Arcoril]

@Ellipse: I just got a call from PayPal asking me to confirm my purchase. I let them know that the payment wasn't fraudulent and it seemed like they thought everything was going to be fine. Hope the funds get released soon.

[Ellipse]

Thanks for letting me know Arcoril. Has anyone else gotten called yet?

[bubblebobbler]

Different countries, wildly different rules. Welcome to Europe!

Kishsavers are VERY CONSPICUOUS AND HEAVY so I don't think declaring them for a fiver will have much luck. The box of six that I proxied for Tinnie was enough to get Her Majesty's finest busy with their dartboard. They wound up declaring the lot at 250 quid I think. Tinnie made no such declaration.

Then they charged us £100 for handling. Bastards!

And this is the reason I'm terrified to buy into this without using a uk proxy, $60 is already an (understandable, but) large amount to pay on shipping, and the fees will just get worse from there I'm sure.

[0100010]

Thanks Hypersphere for the well wishes - I do hope PayPal resolves this hold satisfactorily.

We are actually making the PCB more like the original 4704 design with this change. I had expected for the PCB to stick out the side like with an XT keyboard (for the production PCBs) but now we will be using the ribbon cable approach which moves the through holes to where they are on the original 4704. That way the controller can be tucked below the keyboard instead of requiring the larger area for the controller with the original case. As someone suggested to me, it also offers the benefit that you can replace the controller with a little through hole soldering in the future for another controller 10 or 20 years from now

Below is an original F77 PCB, compared to the prototype PCB whose through holes will be moved about 1 CM inwards like on the original:

20150610_113759 (2).jpg

20150824_231735.jpg

Does this mean you will put the row and column traces on opposites of the PCB like the original, and get rid of the vias?

[Ellipse]

Nope - it just means I am moving the through holes at the top 1 CM inwards like the originals. That's the only change. The PCBs are 100% good the way they are (except that it sticks out of the side a little) so I don't want to make any other changes.

[Ellipse]

wow - after not even the first week of ordering, almost one-third of those who filled out the interest form have already placed their orders on ModelFkeyboards.com! We still have the rest of this month to take care of everyone else.

Has anyone encountered any problems or errors on the project web site? Does anyone need to pay with a credit card or check and prefers not to go through PayPal.com's guest checkout (no registration required)? Please let me know and I will look into other options.

As an update I contacted two GH members that ika recommended I contact regarding advice for PayPal and I have contacted a manager at PayPal whom some online project managers said helped them with their own frozen PayPal assets.

I have noticed a lot of people ordering extra F77 and F62 cases. I guess people want to be able to have both cases before these go out of production. After that you would need to buy a whole keyboard in another case color to get the alternate color

Also the black case / black keys is a popular option.

I continue to type on the brand new Industrial F77 prototype and over the past week the springs have loosened up to make them even more more closely comparable with an original Model F.

[Ellipse]

Well it's been two business days and still no word from PayPal

[t!ng]

oh oh... reminds me of something that happened before... frozen money... much anger...

I think it was...

group-buys-f50/vortex-race-75-european- ... t1659.html

[xyzzy]

The Paypal issue looks serious. I hope the outcome will be different than with Sixty's GB, because I really want to see this awesome project go ahead (and get a F62 for me, as well)

I don't want to sound too pessimistic but I'd advise Ellipse to prepare for the worst case scenario and stop accepting Paypal payments on his site until the issue is sorted out. Paypal doesn't like sellers to get funds in advance for products that they don't have in stock (which is the case of this project). And often they take it as an excuse to keep their dirty and greedy hands on that money for a long time, regardless of the documentation provided by the seller and the evidence that it is not a scam.

I'd get in touch with a lawyer to put pressure on Paypal and at the same time look for alternative methods to get the cash in from future buyers, because the previous experience with such issues with Paypal shows that often the funds were locked for at least 6 months, with the seller often unable to have its Paypal account unlocked even after that period.

[andrewjoy]

Paypal are a bunch of fucking crooks. I would keep the pressure up , threaten legal action and lawyer up.

They could you know i dont know , speak to the buyer and see what they say but oh no that would be too easy !

I would say in the future something like kickstarter for big project group buys, sure there are overheads but you may even get more intrest outside DT GH and Reddit.

EDIT

If I get a split backspace, how hard would it be to convert to a standard 2U backspace? Is it just swapping out a spring/flipper for a stabilizer and reconfiguring the controller? Oh, and changing the keycaps of course.

Just seen this , you could even just rip the spring out and then set that pad to ignored in the controller software , no need to open. You could even re-insert it with my patented spring reinsertion tool.

[czarek]

Great! Ordered F62 standard in black Can't wait to get it!

[Ellipse]

Nice tool andrew! I have found that even if springs are placed a little off on Model F's, the buckling springs are much more prone to errors.

[t!ng]

Your Project made it to a German Computer News site...
http://www.computerbase.de/2016-02/mech ... roduziert/

The common comments are funny as nearly no one understands the price and aim of it.

"Made in China for 325$.."

[Muirium]

Can you blame them? Takes a *lot* of explaining…

[bhtooefr]

It actually doesn't take that much explaining.

Just point at this PDF, on PDF page 46: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ ... Prices.pdf

Specifically, 4704 feature 4662 and 4667 - $340 and $375 respectively. (And, the 50-key is 4650, at $325, the 107-key is 4607 (these feature numbers are really quite intuitive, aren't they?), at $415.)

Now, those tended to be made in North America, and these are made in China, so you'd expect them to be cheaper, and the 62 with keycaps isn't. That's OK, because there's one more thing to point people at, the US Bureau of Labor Statistics Consumer Price Index inflation calculator: http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

$340 in 1983 is $809.09 in 2015 (as far as the BLS inflation calculator goes right now), $375 in 1983 is $892.38 in 2015. So, really, it's well under half price.