Hi-Tek were having a laugh
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
002 and I have been doing some digging into the [wiki]NMB Hi-Tek[/wiki] switch over the last few days. Together with a fortuitous topic that sprung up on GH last night, I think Hi-Tek should be vying for the 2013 Ping Award.
To recap:
White: Linear (one or two eyes) or clicky (two eyes); for the space bar, it's marked with a dot
Grey: Tactile (two eyes) or linear (one eye)
Beige: Linear (two eyes) or tactile (one eye)
Neon green: Linear; used for space bars on linear and tactile (!) boards
Black: Clicky
Cyan: Clicky; for spacebars on black keyboards
Blue: Variant of the above
Pink: Tactile; used for lock keys on beige (tactile) keyboards — different colour and shape, but no functional difference that anyone seems to be aware of
White (soap dispenser): no clue what this one is, only that MouseFan posted a picture with no accompanying page
It appears that tactile switches can be confirmed by the narrow separator bar between the two contacts. Clicky switches can be confirmed by the click arm at the back (visible without opening the switch).
Anyone else want to make my day by telling me about a combination that's not covered?
To recap:
White: Linear (one or two eyes) or clicky (two eyes); for the space bar, it's marked with a dot
Grey: Tactile (two eyes) or linear (one eye)
Beige: Linear (two eyes) or tactile (one eye)
Neon green: Linear; used for space bars on linear and tactile (!) boards
Black: Clicky
Cyan: Clicky; for spacebars on black keyboards
Blue: Variant of the above
Pink: Tactile; used for lock keys on beige (tactile) keyboards — different colour and shape, but no functional difference that anyone seems to be aware of
White (soap dispenser): no clue what this one is, only that MouseFan posted a picture with no accompanying page
It appears that tactile switches can be confirmed by the narrow separator bar between the two contacts. Clicky switches can be confirmed by the click arm at the back (visible without opening the switch).
Anyone else want to make my day by telling me about a combination that's not covered?
- terrpn
- Location: USA- East Coast
- Main keyboard: SSK, Leading Edge DC2214/Blue Alps, Ducky 9008 Pro
- Main mouse: Steel Series Pro Sensei, Cooler Master Xornet
- Favorite switch: Vintage Alps, BS, Cherry....
- DT Pro Member: -
i have a grafika by dtk that has the black clicky space invader
do you want a shot of the label
do you want a shot of the label
- terrpn
- Location: USA- East Coast
- Main keyboard: SSK, Leading Edge DC2214/Blue Alps, Ducky 9008 Pro
- Main mouse: Steel Series Pro Sensei, Cooler Master Xornet
- Favorite switch: Vintage Alps, BS, Cherry....
- DT Pro Member: -
any way to tell if a nmb board will have the space invaders vs the white alps like type switches
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Black clicky fits the pattern — I'm curious whether there are more exceptions, and whether the one/two eye always holds true for beige and grey.
By "Alps like" you mean the rubber dome NMB keyboards with the square white sliders? I'm afraid not, no.
By "Alps like" you mean the rubber dome NMB keyboards with the square white sliders? I'm afraid not, no.
- webwit
- Wild Duck
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: Model F62
- Favorite switch: IBM beam spring
- DT Pro Member: 0000
- Contact:
I have a latching lock black switch on my Symbolics 3620 keyboard. It has zero eyes, it is BLIND! I'll take some pictures tomorrow in the light.
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Interesting, would be nice to see the mechanism too. I wasn't aware these existed. I've wondered if that's what the pink ones are, but nothing in rzwv's photos suggests a latching mechanism, and I'm completely stumped.webwit wrote:I have a latching lock black switch on my Symbolics 3620 keyboard. It has zero eyes, it is BLIND! I'll take some pictures tomorrow in the light.
It won't do any harm (I am not actively recording every keyboard type, just the switch types).terrpn wrote:i have a grafika by dtk that has the black clicky space invader
do you want a shot of the label
- webwit
- Wild Duck
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: Model F62
- Favorite switch: IBM beam spring
- DT Pro Member: 0000
- Contact:
I have a 3620 rev A, there's also a rev B and C if I remember correctly, where the main visual difference is a couple of keys with built-in LED. Of course, they might use a completely different switch family.
How hard or easy or they to open and reassemble? It's not a throwaway board
How hard or easy or they to open and reassemble? It's not a throwaway board
- terrpn
- Location: USA- East Coast
- Main keyboard: SSK, Leading Edge DC2214/Blue Alps, Ducky 9008 Pro
- Main mouse: Steel Series Pro Sensei, Cooler Master Xornet
- Favorite switch: Vintage Alps, BS, Cherry....
- DT Pro Member: -
yes...........square white slidersDaniel Beardsmore wrote:Black clicky fits the pattern — I'm curious whether there are more exceptions, and whether the one/two eye always holds true for beige and grey.
By "Alps like" you mean the rubber dome NMB keyboards with the square white sliders? I'm afraid not, no.
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
@webwit: The slider just unclips and comes off, I think, but the latching mechanism could be evil, like Mitsumi's bent wire contraption. Seriously awful. As are my photos, but I ain't taking that thing apart again! (I surprised myself in managing to get it working again.) The switches in the Mitsumi AEK II use the same bent wire latch :(
- webwit
- Wild Duck
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: Model F62
- Favorite switch: IBM beam spring
- DT Pro Member: 0000
- Contact:
This is why you need three of all keyboards. One to use, one to destroy for investigative purposes, and one to put in a box.
- 002
- Topre Enthusiast
- Location: Australia
- Main keyboard: Realforce & Libertouch
- Main mouse: Logitech G Pro Wireless
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0002
If you do decide to remove the slider, be careful when replacing it.
It's pretty easy to bend the contact leaves if the separator bar doesn't go in exactly in the centre.
It's pretty easy to bend the contact leaves if the separator bar doesn't go in exactly in the centre.
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
I want the other Apple Keyboard II, the one that might be SMK. #1 and #2 in this photo:
http://imgur.com/a/rVE55#20
(#3 is the Mitsumi one I've got.)
http://imgur.com/a/rVE55#20
(#3 is the Mitsumi one I've got.)
- webwit
- Wild Duck
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: Model F62
- Favorite switch: IBM beam spring
- DT Pro Member: 0000
- Contact:
Some bad photos (no good light, phone camera) of the black latching key. I seem to have already broken it, because it no longer sticks. Not sure what happened, I only removed the keycap and looked at it.
One center eye, if you will:
Lever at the back (I had to set brightness to full and contrast to minimum to make it more visible):
(Oh god Galaxy S4 zoom x4!)
The lever, between the two "bars", begins pointing to the left bar, you press the switch, and it clicks to the middle (position in photo). I cannot move the lever with my hand now. Press it again, and it moves to the right, but it remains there now if I press it again. Maybe a tiny piece of plastic of the notches on the housing which guide the lever broke off, maybe not, but seems fragile. I can now manually move the lever to the left again, and it produces a tiny click when I do so. When you move the switch down, the lever catches the notching in the housing, and moves position, this should be some kind of circular thing where it ends up at the start position after two presses.
At the other end of the keyboard there is this Mode Lock key with a black switch, but no lever! Linear like the whites, but requires some more force.
One center eye, if you will:
Lever at the back (I had to set brightness to full and contrast to minimum to make it more visible):
(Oh god Galaxy S4 zoom x4!)
The lever, between the two "bars", begins pointing to the left bar, you press the switch, and it clicks to the middle (position in photo). I cannot move the lever with my hand now. Press it again, and it moves to the right, but it remains there now if I press it again. Maybe a tiny piece of plastic of the notches on the housing which guide the lever broke off, maybe not, but seems fragile. I can now manually move the lever to the left again, and it produces a tiny click when I do so. When you move the switch down, the lever catches the notching in the housing, and moves position, this should be some kind of circular thing where it ends up at the start position after two presses.
At the other end of the keyboard there is this Mode Lock key with a black switch, but no lever! Linear like the whites, but requires some more force.
- 002
- Topre Enthusiast
- Location: Australia
- Main keyboard: Realforce & Libertouch
- Main mouse: Logitech G Pro Wireless
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0002
Cool!
I wonder why they put the 'eye' where it is on those locking switches. The mechanism reminds me a little of the Alps lock switch, although I'm sure it's a bit different. It's a shame that this switch is in such a rare keyboard, I would love to see it taken apart.
I don't expect you to try (I wouldn't, on that keyboard anyway), but complete disassembly of the Hi-Tek switch isn't too difficult. I managed to do it with two and was able to reassemble them pretty easily. If you get the chance this weekend, it would be good to get some clearer pics of the locking arm setup.
I wonder why they put the 'eye' where it is on those locking switches. The mechanism reminds me a little of the Alps lock switch, although I'm sure it's a bit different. It's a shame that this switch is in such a rare keyboard, I would love to see it taken apart.
I don't expect you to try (I wouldn't, on that keyboard anyway), but complete disassembly of the Hi-Tek switch isn't too difficult. I managed to do it with two and was able to reassemble them pretty easily. If you get the chance this weekend, it would be good to get some clearer pics of the locking arm setup.
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
It's unlikely you'd break it, but they're fiddly.
It's basically the same design as Alps, SMK, and Mitsumi and Futaba, with a special looped track. The only other switch I know with that style of lever is Futaba lock, but that has the pivot in the slider, and the track in the shell, which is unusual; the others put the track in the slider.
The other style of latch that I've come across is that of a toothed wheel, used by Omron (more like a bar) and Cherry. Based on the patent, the M6/M7 Lock uses the same wheel design as the MX Lock. OTOH I don't know what vintage Alps switches used, as I've never seen one take apart. You can infer from this that the mechanism is wholly internal:
http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/29717
(It's not like Alps.tw to pass up such an opportunity :)
It's basically the same design as Alps, SMK, and Mitsumi and Futaba, with a special looped track. The only other switch I know with that style of lever is Futaba lock, but that has the pivot in the slider, and the track in the shell, which is unusual; the others put the track in the slider.
The other style of latch that I've come across is that of a toothed wheel, used by Omron (more like a bar) and Cherry. Based on the patent, the M6/M7 Lock uses the same wheel design as the MX Lock. OTOH I don't know what vintage Alps switches used, as I've never seen one take apart. You can infer from this that the mechanism is wholly internal:
http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/29717
(It's not like Alps.tw to pass up such an opportunity :)
- HaaTa
- Master Kiibohd Hunter
- Location: San Jose, California, USA
- Main keyboard: Depends the day
- Main mouse: CST L-TracX
- Favorite switch: Fujitsu Leaf Spring/Topre/BS/Super Alps
- DT Pro Member: 0006
- Contact:
I have one of the lock switches, should I take it apart? And in one, I mean a lot
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Why not. How many of these keyboards do you have, exactly?
- HaaTa
- Master Kiibohd Hunter
- Location: San Jose, California, USA
- Main keyboard: Depends the day
- Main mouse: CST L-TracX
- Favorite switch: Fujitsu Leaf Spring/Topre/BS/Super Alps
- DT Pro Member: 0006
- Contact:
These are the keyboards I'm using for the The Alps Kiibohd project. Approximately 120 of them (don't have a formal count ).
I have an experimentation board sitting on my desk that I can desolder.
I have an experimentation board sitting on my desk that I can desolder.
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
ohhh, that's what you meant by boxes of Alps keyboards …
- webwit
- Wild Duck
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: Model F62
- Favorite switch: IBM beam spring
- DT Pro Member: 0000
- Contact:
Admit it, you just jizzed in your pants at the thought of 120 Alps keyboards and the secrets they hold.
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
There's little left I want to know about Alps right now, or that I imagine there is to know, barring getting the actual part numbers and product family names, and that won't happen. If you meant clones, I suspect they were mostly Himake/Hua-Jie. Proof of SMK making Monterey, and Focus, Ortek, ELSA etc buying Himake, may never come. (Monterey are the only company who have cited their clone vendor as Himake, which is how I learnt about them.) YH-B is an annoying mystery as presumably this is also a current product, but the company who's selling them won't respond at all. (Granted, the switches stink.)
NMB Hi-Tek looks just about wrapped up (though I forgot to actually reference this page for the latching action variant — maybe once you've uploaded some photos to the wiki), barring the soap dispenser version and possibly a few more rare variations.
I still want to know who PED were, though:
(The manufacturer name of PED comes from a contemporary catalogue.)
NMB Hi-Tek looks just about wrapped up (though I forgot to actually reference this page for the latching action variant — maybe once you've uploaded some photos to the wiki), barring the soap dispenser version and possibly a few more rare variations.
I still want to know who PED were, though:
(The manufacturer name of PED comes from a contemporary catalogue.)
- czarek
- Location: Działdowo, Poland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2
- Main mouse: Magic Trackpad 2
- Favorite switch: I have no favourite - I love them all!
- DT Pro Member: -
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Check this out. Yellow linears (slightly lighter than white linears). Purple linear, it feels like yellow ones on a yellow based board, and feels like a white one on a board with mostly whites.
The board with white linears has a green linear space Those space invaders are so far my favourite linear switches, and definitely one of the top favourite switches of all times.
I love the short travel, high activation point, decent weight and superb smoothness which can easily rival Topre or BS.
Also grey linear for space bar.The board with white linears has a green linear space Those space invaders are so far my favourite linear switches, and definitely one of the top favourite switches of all times.
I love the short travel, high activation point, decent weight and superb smoothness which can easily rival Topre or BS.
Last edited by czarek on 11 Sep 2013, 11:43, edited 1 time in total.
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
It doesn't match the Commodore keyboards on the wiki. The purple key is caps lock. You can see clearly that there is an LED in it — this finally explains the tapered planform. Space for an LED was the most obvious answer all along, except that the primary example of this (rzwv's tactile RT-101+) has an LED cluster, so they must have changed their mind at some stage and left the switches as they are. I could see the holes where the LEDs should go, but it wasn't clear whether they were intended for LEDs or not.
Interestingly, webwit's latching switch has no LED capacity.
I feel hesitant to report yellow as a slightly lighter grey/beige, without having an adequate sample.
(I did believe that there were one or two more colours to come, but I no longer remembered what they were. I would not be surprised if there are still more, e.g. some similarly lurid shades of tactile and clicky switch!)
Interestingly, webwit's latching switch has no LED capacity.
I feel hesitant to report yellow as a slightly lighter grey/beige, without having an adequate sample.
(I did believe that there were one or two more colours to come, but I no longer remembered what they were. I would not be surprised if there are still more, e.g. some similarly lurid shades of tactile and clicky switch!)
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
PS that space bar switch looks white to me. White with a coloured dot is quite normal. Grey switches are quite distinctly grey.
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Wait, have we actually run out of colours?
Nope! Here are some more:
http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/rt-101+.html
Powder blue: another clicky switch
Also, we appear to have white for clicky with LED support.
Wheee.
Nope! Here are some more:
http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/rt-101+.html
Powder blue: another clicky switch
Also, we appear to have white for clicky with LED support.
Wheee.
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Just for completeness, the Gundam version:
This appears to be the original design, as (d'oh!) that is the design shown in the patent!
Not only that, but at least one keyboard it comes from doesn't say NMB on the PCB, suggesting that the keyboards went into production before NMB got involved:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=331 ... msg1450817
We don't know for certain as I've failed to get any confirmation about Hi-Tek Corporation's fate.
Also, within the last year, not a single other variant found — could we have got them all now?
This appears to be the original design, as (d'oh!) that is the design shown in the patent!
Not only that, but at least one keyboard it comes from doesn't say NMB on the PCB, suggesting that the keyboards went into production before NMB got involved:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=331 ... msg1450817
We don't know for certain as I've failed to get any confirmation about Hi-Tek Corporation's fate.
Also, within the last year, not a single other variant found — could we have got them all now?
-
- Location: geekhack ergonomics subforum
- Favorite switch: Alps plate spring; clicky SMK
- DT Pro Member: -
In case anyone was still curious about this: the keycaps are different shapes. I’m not sure if the membrane switches are dyesubs either.terrpn wrote: ↑any way to tell if a nmb board will have the space invaders vs the white alps like type switches
- klikkyklik
- Location: America
- Main keyboard: Northgate Omni Key/102 w/Blue Alps
- Favorite switch: Blue Alps
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
I noticed in your list that you indicate blacks as clicky. I have an RT-101+ board with Hi-Tek blacks that are not clicky. They are tactile and fairly stiff.
Sorry for the hair...
Sorry for the hair...