IBM ssk - odd shift key behaviour
- ShivaYash
- Location: de
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2 BT
- Main mouse: CH Products Trackball Pro
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
Hello,
Is this normal? My right shift key is annoying me.
This KB was purchased via this forum recently and on the whole, its great. The right shift key, along with other larger keys were sticking ALL the time. The seller kindly sent me replacement caps which cured the issue. Now, very very rarely, the right shift sticks. But now, I have to hit is either dead centre or towards the left, in order to depress. Is this normal?
Thanks,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjDK78NczCc
Is this normal? My right shift key is annoying me.
This KB was purchased via this forum recently and on the whole, its great. The right shift key, along with other larger keys were sticking ALL the time. The seller kindly sent me replacement caps which cured the issue. Now, very very rarely, the right shift sticks. But now, I have to hit is either dead centre or towards the left, in order to depress. Is this normal?
Thanks,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjDK78NczCc
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Normal? Nope. IBM would never have let that fly as standard.
Take the cap off. And shoot the stab mount insert. It could be in wrong.
Take the cap off. And shoot the stab mount insert. It could be in wrong.
-
- Location: UK
- Main keyboard: Filco ZERO green alps, Model F 122 Terminal
- Main mouse: Ducky Secret / Roller Mouse Pro 1
- Favorite switch: MX Mount Topre / Model F Buckling
- DT Pro Member: 0167
I think there are 2 types of insert right ? I remember someone mentioning that , possibly the one in the enter is wrong ?
I would lub it up and see if it helps , not too much mind you don't want it dripping down onto the membrane, something a bit thicker than oil, i used coconut oil as it was the only thing i had to hand on my 122 ansi mod but i don't recommend it. Worked well tho and smells nice .
I would lub it up and see if it helps , not too much mind you don't want it dripping down onto the membrane, something a bit thicker than oil, i used coconut oil as it was the only thing i had to hand on my 122 ansi mod but i don't recommend it. Worked well tho and smells nice .
- ShivaYash
- Location: de
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2 BT
- Main mouse: CH Products Trackball Pro
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
I've tried lubricating and it has made things worse... this is before I got the replacement keycaps.andrewjoy wrote: ↑I think there are 2 types of insert right ? I remember someone mentioning that , possibly the one in the enter is wrong ?
I would lub it up and see if it helps , not too much mind you don't want it dripping down onto the membrane, something a bit thicker than oil, i used coconut oil as it was the only thing i had to hand on my 122 ansi mod but i don't recommend it. Worked well tho and smells nice .
I used less than a drop of 3 in 1 oil. I wiped everything clean once I realised it was not helping.
The key in question has always sounded different too. The rivets under this area are intact. One of the first jobs I did was strip down the keyboard and clean it.
Can you send me a photo of the different stabilisers? I can't seem to find one online, showing the differences.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Looks right. There's two kinds, but ANSI SSKs only use the first as the other sort is for vertical keys like ISO Return or on the numpad.
Here's how to pop it out if you want to take a look:
I'd consider pulling it out and putting back in, rotated 180°. Or maybe swapping with another of the inserts on the keyboard. Could just be a tolerance thing.
Here's how to pop it out if you want to take a look:
I'd consider pulling it out and putting back in, rotated 180°. Or maybe swapping with another of the inserts on the keyboard. Could just be a tolerance thing.
- ShivaYash
- Location: de
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2 BT
- Main mouse: CH Products Trackball Pro
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
Thanks, yes I've tried all that and its ok, I just now swapped them again and its definitely improved matters, for example, I can now depress the right shift from its right hand side edge. Shall let it settle now and see if it improves with some use.Muirium wrote: ↑Looks right. There's two kinds, but ANSI SSKs only use the first as the other sort is for vertical keys like ISO Return or on the numpad.
Here's how to pop it out if you want to take a look:
I'd consider pulling it out and putting back in, rotated 180°. Or maybe swapping with another of the inserts on the keyboard. Could just be a tolerance thing.
- ShivaYash
- Location: de
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2 BT
- Main mouse: CH Products Trackball Pro
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
Its definitely improved, I can now strike the shift key on the right of side, and it goes down, but its still not smooth as the other keys. Apols for the poor quality video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDsW7ZihHpc
- scottc
- ☃
- Location: Remote locations in Europe
- Main keyboard: GH60-HASRO 62g Nixies, HHKB Pro1 HS, Novatouch
- Main mouse: Steelseries Rival 300
- Favorite switch: Nixdorf 'Soft Touch' MX Black
- DT Pro Member: -
Hm, interesting, An alt key on my second SSK sticks and is always activated. I wonder if it's a similar case.
- ShivaYash
- Location: de
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2 BT
- Main mouse: CH Products Trackball Pro
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
Second ssk heh? Wow! My situation has improved for sure and during actual/ real typing, its smooth and easy to depress, but every so often, if i 'test' it, it shudders a little before depressing. ODD.
Clearly only buying another SSK, ideally in unicorn industrial grey will resolve the issue for me.
Clearly only buying another SSK, ideally in unicorn industrial grey will resolve the issue for me.
Last edited by ShivaYash on 30 Jan 2015, 15:41, edited 1 time in total.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
I have three. Well, two of them here, and one still in America.
The star is a new in box model that just arrived. I haven't dared peek inside yet…
The star is a new in box model that just arrived. I haven't dared peek inside yet…
- XMIT
- [ XMIT ]
- Location: Austin, TX area
- Main keyboard: XMIT Hall Effect
- Main mouse: CST L-Trac Trackball
- Favorite switch: XMIT 60g Tactile Hall Effect
- DT Pro Member: 0093
I have had this exact problem many times and have tried everything you have and other tricks as well. The best solution I have found is to buy a new white stabilizer insert from Unicormp for $1.50. These use a slightly updated mold that seems to eliminate sticking keys. Good luck!
- ShivaYash
- Location: de
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2 BT
- Main mouse: CH Products Trackball Pro
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
Many thanks! I have a few little bits I want to order from them, so I will add the stabilisers to the list.jsoltren wrote:I have had this exact problem many times and have tried everything you have and other tricks as well. The best solution I have found is to buy a new white stabilizer insert from Unicormp for $1.50. These use a slightly updated mold that seems to eliminate sticking keys. Good luck!
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
In a manner of speaking, it was!scottc wrote: ↑Go on... How else do you know it's not full of bricks?
http://deskthority.net/post207107.html#p207107
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
It seems that this could be a problem with the SSKs.
My right shift had problems to actuate and was getting suck. I lose the screws and it got definitively better. It would always come back up. But the actuation was forced when pressing at the edges of the cap. Then I moved the inserts around, including a 180 deg rotation. I managed to improve it again. The final solution was a replacement of all the inserts with the ones from a 122m. Now it works like a dream.
If many people are having this problem, one could deduce that is a general issue.
My right shift had problems to actuate and was getting suck. I lose the screws and it got definitively better. It would always come back up. But the actuation was forced when pressing at the edges of the cap. Then I moved the inserts around, including a 180 deg rotation. I managed to improve it again. The final solution was a replacement of all the inserts with the ones from a 122m. Now it works like a dream.
If many people are having this problem, one could deduce that is a general issue.
- ShivaYash
- Location: de
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2 BT
- Main mouse: CH Products Trackball Pro
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
Thanks for this information. Would be interesting to see it Mu suffers the same on his new old stock example. I'll post in the marketplace section to see it any one is parting a board for parts. Being in the UK I don't have the same large pool of resources as those in the USA.idollar wrote:It seems that this could be a problem with the SSKs.
My right shift had problems to actuate and was getting suck. I lose the screws and it got definitively better. It would always come back up. But the actuation was forced when pressing at the edges of the cap. Then I moved the inserts around, including a 180 deg rotation. I managed to improve it again. The final solution was a replacement of all the inserts with the ones from a 122m. Now it works like a dream.
If many people are having this problem, one could deduce that is a general issue.
I'm a novice IBM person, but do I take it, the 122 is the standard model M keyboard? Are the stabilisers 'better' from these boards?
With best
- chzel
- Location: Athens, Greece
- Main keyboard: Phantom
- Main mouse: Mionix Avior 7000
- Favorite switch: Beamspring, BS, Vintage Blacks.
- DT Pro Member: 0086
My SSK, from the same haul as Muirium's, blue box/grey label/beige plate, has absolutely no problems with Shift actuation, even at the very edge of the key.ShivaYash wrote: ↑Thanks for this information. Would be interesting to see it Mu suffers the same on his new old stock example....<snip>idollar wrote:It seems that this could be a problem with the SSKs.
...<snip>...
If many people are having this problem, one could deduce that is a general issue.
Are both your SSKs bolt modded? Maybe bolted a bit too tight? The plastic plate could possibly deform enough for the stabilizer to bind.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
I tried my NIB SSK just briefly, but the stabilised keys were all fine. (I habitually try every stabbed key right on the edges when I test a board.) In fact, I've never had trouble with stabs on a Model M *except* for the 122 key that I bolt modded. Chzel's right: a bolt mod can put too much strain in places across the board. And is a great opportunity to make stupid goofs when inserting stabiliser bases, as I discovered.
122 keys aren't the usual size either. That's 101 key. 122's are huge.
122 keys aren't the usual size either. That's 101 key. 122's are huge.
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
My SSK is a 1391472 (22.July.1987) that I bolt moded.
This board has nothing to do with the NIB that I am waiting for
As I said, initially the screws (I used screws) where to tight. This was corrected.
It works perfectly now after I replaced the inserts with a 122M.
BTW the 122 with the SSK inserts works also without any problem (I am typing this post with it to test the board)
This board has nothing to do with the NIB that I am waiting for
As I said, initially the screws (I used screws) where to tight. This was corrected.
It works perfectly now after I replaced the inserts with a 122M.
BTW the 122 with the SSK inserts works also without any problem (I am typing this post with it to test the board)
- ShivaYash
- Location: de
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2 BT
- Main mouse: CH Products Trackball Pro
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
My right shift key has started playing up again. It alone sounds so different to the rest of the keys, and its driving me insane.
It just does not liked to be depressed on its right side. Pressing the right edge is fine, as is the left, and left of centre, but right of centre, it just does not go down!
Any ideas, other than to buy another KB?
It just does not liked to be depressed on its right side. Pressing the right edge is fine, as is the left, and left of centre, but right of centre, it just does not go down!
Any ideas, other than to buy another KB?
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Maybe a fresh cap? Seems like it must be some sort of tolerance issue. At worst: the barrel is the problem and may not be fixable. But different stab inserts and caps are the things to try first.
Always annoying when something's up with your dream keyboard. Model Ms aren't typically troubled by this.
Always annoying when something's up with your dream keyboard. Model Ms aren't typically troubled by this.
- ShivaYash
- Location: de
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2 BT
- Main mouse: CH Products Trackball Pro
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
I just opened her up and clearly I need a bolt mod, sooner or later.Muirium wrote: ↑Maybe a fresh cap? Seems like it must be some sort of tolerance issue. At worst: the barrel is the problem and may not be fixable. But different stab inserts and caps are the things to try first.
Always annoying when something's up with your dream keyboard. Model Ms aren't typically troubled by this.
I'd prefer not to do it in all honestly, I like running it stock. The rivets in this area, (the right hand shift) have all gone!
I am suspect movement in the barrels is causing this. During this inspection for a moment I lost the cursors! The springs moved as I tried to see between the metal plate and barrels! YIKES. I was able to recover them and all is now working. I also placed two folded up squares of paper behind the shift key area, to give some support. And I am not sure if it is this bodge, but things are now much better, UNTIL THE NEXT TIME.
I hope Cindy will soon hook me up with another SSK. But nothing feels as good as your first heh?
- ShivaYash
- Location: de
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2 BT
- Main mouse: CH Products Trackball Pro
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
Where did you get these 122 inserts my friend?idollar wrote: ↑My SSK is a 1391472 (22.July.1987) that I bolt moded.
This board has nothing to do with the NIB that I am waiting for
As I said, initially the screws (I used screws) where to tight. This was corrected.
It works perfectly now after I replaced the inserts with a 122M.
BTW the 122 with the SSK inserts works also without any problem (I am typing this post with it to test the board)
I need someone US-side to hook me up, so to say.
- Mal-2
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
- Main keyboard: Cherry G86-61400
- Main mouse: Generic 6-button "gaming mouse"
- Favorite switch: Probably buckling spring, but love them Blues too
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Admittedly I am not clear on exactly what rivets are required, but if they're anything like the kind I've used before, rivet tools are not expensive. You'll still need the right size of rivets, a box of which will probably set you back almost as much as the tool itself, but it's still not a terribly expensive bit of kit.ShivaYash wrote: ↑I just opened her up and clearly I need a bolt mod, sooner or later.Muirium wrote: ↑Maybe a fresh cap? Seems like it must be some sort of tolerance issue. At worst: the barrel is the problem and may not be fixable. But different stab inserts and caps are the things to try first.
Always annoying when something's up with your dream keyboard. Model Ms aren't typically troubled by this.
I'd prefer not to do it in all honestly, I like running it stock. The rivets in this area, (the right hand shift) have all gone!
I am suspect movement in the barrels is causing this. During this inspection for a moment I lost the cursors! The springs moved as I tried to see between the metal plate and barrels! YIKES. I was able to recover them and all is now working. I also placed two folded up squares of paper behind the shift key area, to give some support. And I am not sure if it is this bodge, but things are now much better, UNTIL THE NEXT TIME.
I hope Cindy will soon hook me up with another SSK. But nothing feels as good as your first heh?
- fohat
- Elder Messenger
- Location: Knoxville, Tennessee, USA
- Main keyboard: Model F 122-key terminal
- Main mouse: Microsoft Optical Mouse
- Favorite switch: Model F Buckling Spring
- DT Pro Member: 0158
Barrel inserts are inserts. If any particular insert fits better than any other, it is coincidence.
- Attachments
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- ShivaYash
- Location: de
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2 BT
- Main mouse: CH Products Trackball Pro
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
Borat accent: 'you make joke me with?!'Mal-2 wrote:Admittedly I am not clear on exactly what rivets are required, but if they're anything like the kind I've used before, rivet tools are not expensive. You'll still need the right size of rivets, a box of which will probably set you back almost as much as the tool itself, but it's still not a terribly expensive bit of kit.ShivaYash wrote: ↑I just opened her up and clearly I need a bolt mod, sooner or later.Muirium wrote: ↑Maybe a fresh cap? Seems like it must be some sort of tolerance issue. At worst: the barrel is the problem and may not be fixable. But different stab inserts and caps are the things to try first.
Always annoying when something's up with your dream keyboard. Model Ms aren't typically troubled by this.
I'd prefer not to do it in all honestly, I like running it stock. The rivets in this area, (the right hand shift) have all gone!
I am suspect movement in the barrels is causing this. During this inspection for a moment I lost the cursors! The springs moved as I tried to see between the metal plate and barrels! YIKES. I was able to recover them and all is now working. I also placed two folded up squares of paper behind the shift key area, to give some support. And I am not sure if it is this bodge, but things are now much better, UNTIL THE NEXT TIME.
I hope Cindy will soon hook me up with another SSK. But nothing feels as good as your first heh?
Rivet mod usually means pilot holes and screws, with a new membrane. A member on here does them really nicely.
I actually probably only need one screw to fix my present situation.
- Mal-2
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
- Main keyboard: Cherry G86-61400
- Main mouse: Generic 6-button "gaming mouse"
- Favorite switch: Probably buckling spring, but love them Blues too
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
Then I don't get it. For a rivet to fail, doesn't there have to have been a rivet there in the first place? For there to have been a rivet, wouldn't the holes have to already exist? Your description sounded like one or more existing rivets broke and needed replacing. Why would that require any new holes?ShivaYash wrote: ↑Borat accent: 'you make joke me with?!'
Rivet mod usually means pilot holes and screws, with a new membrane. A member on here does them really nicely.
I actually probably only need one screw to fix my present situation.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Search for "IBM Model M bolt mod" and have a look at how it's done. These are single ended rivets, if that's a sensible term, that are essentially parts of the barrel frame. It's been a while since I made a good old messy bolt mod, so I forget whether the rivets are technically separate plastic, sunk into the frame like molten plastic bolts. But whatever, they have just one end and one hole to work with. Otherwise, Model Ms would be as nice to work with as Model Fs. Clearly not IBM's intention!
Seriously: the process is not for the faint hearted or those operating on a much loved keyboard as their first! Some people like to say it's easy… ask for photos of their work, and if they did a good job, send your board to them and pay them to do it!
The "122" mentioned earlier is just a kind of Model M. The big 122 key battleship Ms are relatively common and quite unloved. They make a great, cheap source of IBM caps (better legends than Unicomp's and better for colour matching) and other tasty parts.
Seriously: the process is not for the faint hearted or those operating on a much loved keyboard as their first! Some people like to say it's easy… ask for photos of their work, and if they did a good job, send your board to them and pay them to do it!
The "122" mentioned earlier is just a kind of Model M. The big 122 key battleship Ms are relatively common and quite unloved. They make a great, cheap source of IBM caps (better legends than Unicomp's and better for colour matching) and other tasty parts.