[COMPLETED] Laser Cut Prototyping mini-GB

matt3o · 14 Jul 2013, 08:53

Broadmonkey wrote:btw, I am still in doubt about the spacebar on my plate, maybe I should remove the left win key as to make space for a more friendly 7u spacebar. hmm.. decisions, decisions...

my suggestion would be to make it 6.25u and reduce right control. Or even make it 1u and place a little gap between the mods and the arrow cluster.

Acanthophis wrote:matt, will there be another round if you guys decide to go before August?
Or asked in another way: Do you have unrestricted access to the place where you get the cuts?

yeah, if there's interest we can run another round. Also, any time I need to laser cut something I could add your orders (even just one more plate).

llovro · 14 Jul 2013, 09:20

I really need help with this plate. I don't even know where to start. Also, what switch would I have to use to switch between different modes? Like 1 mode is dota, second one is idk what and third one is something else?

mtl · 14 Jul 2013, 09:50

Here's a rough concept of what I'd like to build:

: keyboard-concept.png (75.59 KiB) Viewed 5548 times

I'm not sure yet about some of the dimensions. The blue rectangle is a
little OLED display. The cut on the bottom would leave a gap between the keyboard and wrist rest. Still not sure about that.

Muirium · 14 Jul 2013, 13:59

llovro wrote:I really need help with this plate. I don't even know where to start. Also, what switch would I have to use to switch between different modes? Like 1 mode is dota, second one is idk what and third one is something else?

Unless you're looking for a great big physical switch on your board, you'll want to do this by using the switches you've already put in the design. You're using a Teensy or some other programmable controller, right? If so, each "mode" of play could be a layer. Then you could turn to each one of them using a function key + number combo (or whatever buttons you prefer to have a second meaning for selecting here) which acts as a layer lock. You will need a dedicated function key for this, as I understand (but I could well be wrong). In other words: when you press this key, the computer doesn't see it, and all that happens is the controller looks to see what layer you want.

That or DIP switches on the underside like the big boys! Hooked up to the controller in either case.

matt3o · 14 Jul 2013, 20:51

despite all my efforts I was not able to end up with a satisfactory plate for the ALPS project. It's too risky to add the stabilizers with so little reference, I would most likely end up with a useless expensive piece of aluminum. I would need to get a full Focus keyboard (not just the caps) and check the plate.

That being said I will probably make another MX layout by tomorrow so I will participate to the GB anyway.

Muirium · 14 Jul 2013, 21:01

What measurements do you need? Got a diagram? I have two Alps mount keyboards (one a desktop Acer and the other a laptop Zenith) which could have data points.

matt3o · 14 Jul 2013, 21:44

Muirium wrote:What measurements do you need? Got a diagram? I have two Alps mount keyboards (one a desktop Acer and the other a laptop Zenith) which could have data points.

stabs position from the switch hole for ISO enter, spacebar, backspace and left shift.

Muirium · 15 Jul 2013, 00:15

Right, measuring stick is out and so are the keyboards. The laptop has "fat assed return" but the Acer is standard old school ISO, with a long space bar. Measurements in progress.

Muirium · 15 Jul 2013, 00:41

Well, the Zenith's space bar is an unusual 5.5 units wide and uses a far off-centre switch. Probably not a good data point!

The Acer's space bar is 7 units wide. The slots for its Costar stab are 120 mm apart, measured from the outside edge of each, with the switch lying bang in the middle. Each slot is 3 mm wide along that same axis: the same as those on Steely. These are a mere 5 mm tall, making them quite square in comparison. The space bar also has two plungers, whose cylinders lie 70 mm apart on the same straight line, again centred around the switch.

The Acer's left shift has no stabs, it's just 1.25u. Interested in the right? It's 2.75u by the look of it. I'm working on Enter and backspace.

Muirium · 15 Jul 2013, 00:50

Oh, these are all looking familiar…

Right Shift: 30 mm symmetric around switch hole, measured from their outer edge. Each hole is 3 mm on that axis and 5 mm on the cap's short side.

Backspace: same as right shift but 25 mm apart instead. Same hole sizes. All symmetrical.

ISO Enter: rotated of course, and not symmetric. 25 mm apart, centred around the hole but flush against the switch's right hand edge.

The fact the holes are the same width as Steely's slots is encouraging. Costar stabs are Costar stabs, whether for Cherry or Alps.

matt3o · 15 Jul 2013, 00:57

thanks for your help Muirium, but from the description your caps seem a bit different from mine. My Enter for example has 4 stabs (!!! no kidding). I'm afraid I have to find another Focus 2001

photekq · 15 Jul 2013, 01:06

So are we all set for getting the quotes this week?

Muirium · 15 Jul 2013, 01:25

matt3o wrote:thanks for your help Muirium, but from the description your caps seem a bit different from mine. My Enter for example has 4 stabs (!!! no kidding). I'm afraid I have to find another Focus 2001

Ah, sounds like a big ass enter! Like this?

The Zenith has an Alps mount big ass enter. I can see one Costar stab from the keyboard's edge.

Even if these aren't directly translatable to your Focus caps, I fancy a peek. Back to the metal rule!

pasph · 15 Jul 2013, 02:02

Do you want to take my Omnikey for a ride? they looks similar

Muirium · 15 Jul 2013, 02:13

It's Big Assed Enter night on DT! Here's mine:

: IMG_6822.JPG (242.56 KiB) Viewed 5469 times

That was a tricky cap to get off. But with some patient wiggling, it is done; with wiry stabs all intact.

Here's its spot on the Zenith laptop keyboard:

: IMG_6823.JPG (680.77 KiB) Viewed 5469 times

The long stab's holes lie 35 mm apart, and look the same size as all the Acer's; but the plastic clips are hard against the plate on this one, so they're almost invisible. The short stab's slots are 25 mm apart, end to end as always.

Their exact positions aren't symmetric like the Acer keyboard. In fact, this Zenith seems to use a whole different pattern where all the stabilsed keys (there's 6 in total!) have their slots along an edge. I need to desolder the cover on the back and check the PCB sometime anyway, can take more pictures and measurements then; if this one is a better match for the caps in question.

mtl · 15 Jul 2013, 04:12

Here's what I'm working with atm:

: top.png (4.54 KiB) Viewed 5453 times

This is based on trackpoint parts I have now but I hope to ultimately go with the squared buttons from the Spacesaver II.

I'm a little worried about the hole that needs to be cut for the trackpoint stick. It will sever parts of the plate around the G, H and B keys, and without a PCB to support the switches, they may be too loose. Already the B switch may have to be mounted sideways, so I can shave off part of the switch without affecting the clips that grab the plate. Here's a close-up of the area I'm talking about:

: GHB.png (2.59 KiB) Viewed 5453 times

The hole for the stick will need to be somewhere in the vicinity of 4 mm (square) to 7 mm (circular).

matt3o · 15 Jul 2013, 08:30

Look how strange this thing is:

@pasph: does the Omnikey come with the same layout pictured above?

matt3o · 15 Jul 2013, 10:26

mtl wrote:
GHB.png
The hole for the stick will need to be somewhere in the vicinity of 4 mm (square) to 7 mm (circular).

I have trouble visualizing this... do you have some real world photos?

Muirium · 15 Jul 2013, 15:06

Matt, got pictures of the backs of your stabilised caps?

matt3o · 15 Jul 2013, 15:15

yes, thanks for asking!

: 20130715_151121.jpg (239.91 KiB) Viewed 5407 times

Apart from the enter key they seem close to what you described.

I would be ready to place the order (sans whitefox) but I'm still waiting for confirmation for a couple of DXFs (oneproduct's and dw_junon's)

Muirium · 15 Jul 2013, 15:24

Yes, those look quite a lot like the Zenith's caps. (And not at all like the Acer's, which I thought were more generic, but there you go!) I think you could make an educated guess on your enter key's stabs and have a good chance. Its clips, like mine, are the same as the rest. Only the positions are weird, and can be measured from the cap, right?

Mine has larger stabs and a more central switch: yours may actually be the better design! Enter is a very fiddly key indeed to get in and out of its stabs on the Zenith. They overlap more than is sensible.

matt3o · 15 Jul 2013, 15:36

unfortunately a very small error in the stab holes makes the key unusable (I know what it means!). The only thing I could try is to make the holes pretty small and file them later.

EDIT: Also please Broadmonkey confirm your design so we can add your board!

Muirium · 15 Jul 2013, 16:11

Indeed, I know the feeling of a snapped stabiliser foot: plunk, plunk, pl… key doesn't rise up again! Getting the hole wrong spells that forever.

Fortunately, in both boards I measured, the stabs were at least positioned in a neat millimetre grid.

matt3o · 15 Jul 2013, 16:18

okay I'll take the risk and I'll follow your directions

may I bug you on skype or gtalk if I need a quick measure-check?

Muirium · 15 Jul 2013, 16:19

Email's better, if it works for you. You've got my address.

Edit: oh well, the Zenith's switches are smaller than standard Alps or Matias, so the measurements aren't transferable. Blast!

pasph · 15 Jul 2013, 19:21

matt3o wrote: @pasph: does the Omnikey come with the same layout pictured above?

Sorry, no

matt3o · 15 Jul 2013, 20:10

so people what do you think? should we proceed with what we already have (and get close to no discount) or should we wait the end of August?

Broadmonkey · 15 Jul 2013, 21:01

matt3o wrote:unfortunately a very small error in the stab holes makes the key unusable (I know what it means!). The only thing I could try is to make the holes pretty small and file them later.

EDIT: Also please Broadmonkey confirm your design so we can add your board!

Sorry, I have been in two minds of what I should get, but I have settled on this:

: +V6 65p Kmini.png (16.69 KiB) Viewed 5355 times

mtl · 16 Jul 2013, 04:23

matt3o wrote:
mtl wrote:
The attachment GHB.png is no longer available
The hole for the stick will need to be somewhere in the vicinity of 4 mm (square) to 7 mm (circular).
I have trouble visualizing this... do you have some real world photos?

Here's the trackpoint module I used for taking measurements. It's from a scissor-switch keyboard so the trackpoint doesn't have a stick to raise it up high. Hopefully the SSII has a stick that can be used (should get here in a couple days).

: trackpoint.png (646.05 KiB) Viewed 5339 times

matt3o · 16 Jul 2013, 09:15

You definitely need a longer stick (don't really know how not to pun). I don't think you can fit that in the current case design. Cables almost touch the bottom of the case, it won't be easy to fit a daughter board like that under the switches. Probably you need 1 more 3mm side layer and a looong stick.

Anyway, today I'm sending the quote request (with Broadmonkey's design too). If they confirm that they can deliver before the summer break I'll confirm the order BUT I need payment within 12/24h!