Alps Appreciation

Lynx_Carpathica wrote:Making SKCM Blues is impossible. We need serious stuff to determine how are the switches made.

Anyway, I made the survey.This is only a test version (typos and anything else), but I'm just qrious what we'll see.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ogwHou...SGL1Tp-DL0

You'll get the idea.

Depending on the desired outcome, wouldn't you want to put this form out there, also on GH and reddit?
Also, not sure what's about the case question... is a case already in discussion? Let's not lose focus so fast, a click leaf is good enough a start :)
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Unread post08 Nov 2018, 00:24

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Unread post08 Nov 2018, 00:57

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Unread post08 Nov 2018, 01:51

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abrahamstechnology wrote:
Lynx_Carpathica wrote:Making SKCM Blues is impossible. We need serious stuff to determine how are the switches made.

Anyway, I made the survey.This is only a test version (typos and anything else), but I'm just qrious what we'll see.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ogwHou...SGL1Tp-DL0

You'll get the idea.

Isn't the special click leaf where the unique feel is from? The sliders are likely just POM. As for the lubricant, we could just use PTFE dry lube.
An old Alps employee, who was in charge of two keyboard assembly lines in 1987, mentioned thatthe stem was "probably" nylon and the housing ABS and that the lube was "JIS spec, maybe containing some silicone" (strictly speaking the materials are confidential).

Yes, I'd say it's the shape of the click leaf that gives it its special feel. It's different between blue and white Alps, too.
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Unread post08 Nov 2018, 06:39

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bujorc wrote:
Lynx_Carpathica wrote:Making SKCM Blues is impossible. We need serious stuff to determine how are the switches made.

Anyway, I made the survey.This is only a test version (typos and anything else), but I'm just qrious what we'll see.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ogwHou...SGL1Tp-DL0

You'll get the idea.

Depending on the desired outcome, wouldn't you want to put this form out there, also on GH and reddit?
Also, not sure what's about the case question... is a case already in discussion? Let's not lose focus so fast, a click leaf is good enough a start :)

I'll put it out later this day.
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Unread post08 Nov 2018, 09:12

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Chyros wrote:
abrahamstechnology wrote:
Lynx_Carpathica wrote:Making SKCM Blues is impossible. We need serious stuff to determine how are the switches made.

Anyway, I made the survey.This is only a test version (typos and anything else), but I'm just qrious what we'll see.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ogwHou...SGL1Tp-DL0

You'll get the idea.

Isn't the special click leaf where the unique feel is from? The sliders are likely just POM. As for the lubricant, we could just use PTFE dry lube.
An old Alps employee, who was in charge of two keyboard assembly lines in 1987, mentioned thatthe stem was "probably" nylon and the housing ABS and that the lube was "JIS spec, maybe containing some silicone" (strictly speaking the materials are confidential).

Yes, I'd say it's the shape of the click leaf that gives it its special feel. It's different between blue and white Alps, too.

That's interesting. Is there any way someone could do a side by side comparison of the click leafs?
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Unread post08 Nov 2018, 14:54

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keycap wrote:That's interesting. Is there any way someone could do a side by side comparison of the click leafs?
At least one person has posted high-res macro shots of the leaves side by side. It's really interesting, and really plays into what Matias said about the manufacturing process of their own leaves.
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Unread post08 Nov 2018, 16:25

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And what did they say?
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Unread post09 Nov 2018, 07:48

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All I want to do is be more like me and be less like you.
They changed their manufacturing process at some point from bending the leaves to curving them.
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Unread post09 Nov 2018, 08:22

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I didn't think there was much difference in click leaves between blue and white alps. At least not on the two blue alps boards that I have.
I will have to look at them more closely now.
I have looked into getting switches made, tai hao still make a clone of the Alps switch don't they.
My plan was to find a company that makes knock off Alps and use them to order the housing. I then would need a manufacturer to form the stems and a source for click leaves. If the click leaf is the main difference I could just buy knock off switches and source the proper click leaves and then assemble them in house.
Of course the assembly would cost in man hours unless I could automate but I'm unsure if that would be feasible.
I have a friend that owns a tool and die shop I sent him a click leaf and he's going to tell me what type of tooling and process I need to easily create them. I had planned on building a small press so I could just punch them out myself if its not to expensive.
Mainly the costs are involved in startup, if your trying to make your own housings and stems you need tooling which can cost as much as 20 or more.
So I'm going to have to purchase the housings from another manufacturer. I need a buyer in China to locate a suitable supplier, quality is very important when it comes to Alps.
I'm really hoping that the click leaf is the main cause of blue alps specialness, if so then creating a clone of the blue switch shouldn't be that difficult. Even if I have to find a fab house to make the sliders with the proper material, as long as they can use the same tooling it should be possible(much more expensive though)
I've been messing around with hall effect sensors and Alps, trying to combine my two loves.
I'll let you know what I find out from my friend about making the leaves.
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Unread post09 Nov 2018, 16:14

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There's aother contributing factors, of course. The Alps switchplate has a nicer, less interfering feel than the simplified switchplate. The old slitted ABS housings and long switchplates give better sounds than PC bamboo housings and bare contacts. The lube on blue Alps probably had something to do with it as well.

Bottom line is; if you genuinely want to capture the magic of blue Alps, I don't think you can cut corners. Or even modernise!
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Unread post09 Nov 2018, 16:40

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LessthanZero wrote:I didn't think there was much difference in click leaves between blue and white alps. At least not on the two blue alps boards that I have.
I will have to look at them more closely now.
I have looked into getting switches made, tai hao still make a clone of the Alps switch don't they.
My plan was to find a company that makes knock off Alps and use them to order the housing. I then would need a manufacturer to form the stems and a source for click leaves. If the click leaf is the main difference I could just buy knock off switches and source the proper click leaves and then assemble them in house.
Of course the assembly would cost in man hours unless I could automate but I'm unsure if that would be feasible.
I have a friend that owns a tool and die shop I sent him a click leaf and he's going to tell me what type of tooling and process I need to easily create them. I had planned on building a small press so I could just punch them out myself if its not to expensive.
Mainly the costs are involved in startup, if your trying to make your own housings and stems you need tooling which can cost as much as 20 or more.
So I'm going to have to purchase the housings from another manufacturer. I need a buyer in China to locate a suitable supplier, quality is very important when it comes to Alps.
I'm really hoping that the click leaf is the main cause of blue alps specialness, if so then creating a clone of the blue switch shouldn't be that difficult. Even if I have to find a fab house to make the sliders with the proper material, as long as they can use the same tooling it should be possible(much more expensive though)
I've been messing around with hall effect sensors and Alps, trying to combine my two loves.
I'll let you know what I find out from my friend about making the leaves.

I think Gaote is your best bet. Also there is Xiang Ming and Tai-Hao (although the latter always seems to ignore any messages)
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Unread post09 Nov 2018, 17:27

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someone pls post the poll on reddit and gh. I don't have accounts for either of them.

should we create another thread in the workshop?
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Unread post09 Nov 2018, 20:31

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I know when people mention 3d printing, the first thing that comes to mind is shitty extruded layers and lack of small detail, but 3d Printing has come a long way, and is still improving. Mass producing small detailed pieces of plastic is not outside the realm of possibility for the layperson anymore, without needing to involve big companies with their fancy tooling.
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Unread post10 Nov 2018, 01:12

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I had thought to 3d print sliders when I am trying out different plastic types and lubricants. To reduce variables I'm using actual Alps switches and I replace one component at a time testing and improving it until I can get identical performance from my replacement part. Then I will move on to the next piece. Eventually if order does reign over chaos I will have a near perfect dupe. Alas ,fair dreamer eh.
My plan is to make a few test keypads after I get the sliders and leafs(leaves) prototyped.
That way l can test clone housings vs actual Alps, Pine vs bamboo etc. and do lubricant tests and the whole switchplate situation. Its a huge project and I might die before I finish it(or I will lose interest and start building a computer simulation of the perfect woman) but it's fun to work on.
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Unread post10 Nov 2018, 03:57

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3d printed parts usually have texture issues i thought. Its been a while since I was around 3d printers though so that may have changed. Might be able to use a vapor bath to smooth them out though idk.
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Unread post10 Nov 2018, 04:40

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UV cured printers that build upwards from a liquid bed can have pretty much any texture you like these days.
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Unread post10 Nov 2018, 15:47

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Then let’s get cracking! Where’s our home brew switches already?
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Unread post10 Nov 2018, 19:15

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3D printing sliders wouldn't be worth the money honestly, even using material jetting, which is honestly the most accurate plastic 3D printing, still has a rough finish and a very high cost per part. When I was prototyping the Nexus Alps sliders I did this and it honestly isn't nearly accurate enough to get any real data/info from as I learned later on. Alps are sensitive to even super small dimensional changes(0.05mm would be noticeable) and surfaces need to be very smooth otherwise it can affect it as well. The tolerance of 3D printing is usually higher than what you would want, and lack of high repeatability accuracy will destroy all results and make anything you learn vague. As well not 3D printing material(resin based) gets close to the actual injection molded ones, they are always similar but still off and that means you can't learn anything about material choice either.

Long story short, the best way to proto is basically non-existent for such low budget R&D projects like this.
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Unread post13 Nov 2018, 06:05

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What about assembly from preformed plastic shapes?
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Unread post13 Nov 2018, 06:12

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I love my alps. But I will never ever lube them again. It changed my Orange alps characteristics so much it felt like a whole other switch. More like cram damped Alps both in feel and sound. So I wiped of the sliders again and put the housings in soap water and been happy ever since. Anywho at least the process took away the off-center stiffness.
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I guess I was wrong about Tai-Hao not listening to me at all, they just put APC switches on their site along with 65G clicky ones.
The 55G one also seems to have a new darker blue slider, weird.
https://shop.tai-hao.com/products/apc-s...280g-click
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Unread post17 Nov 2018, 19:05

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deeyay wrote:I love my alps. But I will never ever lube them again. It changed my Orange alps characteristics so much it felt like a whole other switch. More like cram damped Alps both in feel and sound. So I wiped of the sliders again and put the housings in soap water and been happy ever since. Anywho at least the process took away the off-center stiffness.

Did you use dry lube? You should get much better results.

I just get a drop on a small paintbrush, and dab it at each side of the slider, the capillary action sucks it into the switch. It dries into a film.
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Unread post17 Nov 2018, 19:21

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...they just put APC switches on their site along with 65G clicky ones.

How are the APC switches? Are they comparable to Matias switches at all? I haven't heard much about them.
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Unread post17 Nov 2018, 20:19

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AlpsComeback wrote:
...they just put APC switches on their site along with 65G clicky ones.

How are the APC switches? Are they comparable to Matias switches at all? I haven't heard much about them.

They sound much less rattly than Matias. The clicker is a bit delicate though.
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Unread post17 Nov 2018, 20:45

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@abrahamstechnology: I see that Tai Hao is offering 280g APC switches. 280g?!? Is this for real?

Are any of the components of APC switches interchangeable with vintage Alps and/or Matias switches?

Are you using the Dupont teflon dry lube that is sold in plastic squeeze bottles (as opposed to the spray can variety)?

Have you tried molybdenum disulfide dry lube?

So far, I have been using Super Lube 51010 synthetic oil applied with a small brush very sparingly. It works wonders on Alps that are exhibiting binding when the key is pressed off-center and imparts an overall smoothness. However, as deeyay pointed out, lubing can change the personality of the switch.
abrahamstechnology wrote:Anyways, Ive figured out why some Matiases physically stick. It's the stems. They are too tight, and every every now and then you get a switch that is too tight to the point of the keycap warping out the slider and it catching on the housing/leaf.

I have just now encountered this problem with a KBP V60 Type R with Matias Click switches. I replaced the stock keycaps with doubleshots from a Northgate Omnikey 101. After the replacement, several keys would not spring back to their original starting positions. I replaced the top switch components with parts from some Matias Click switches purchased several years ago and the problem was seemingly solved. However, I noticed some of the other keys were displaying some partial sticking. I tried dye-sub PBT caps from the following boards -- IBM 5140, IBM P770, and SGI Granite -- all of these worked fine with no sticking.

I agree with your assessment. Some keycaps seem to cause the sliders to expand and to catch in the top housings. It appears to be an issue with the sliders and/or top switch housings.

In addition, the keycaps the KBP is using with their Matias-switch keyboards fit much too tightly -- the caps are extremely difficult to remove.
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Unread post17 Nov 2018, 23:13

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Hypersphere wrote:@abrahamstechnology: I see that Tai Hao is offering 280g APC switches. 280g?!? Is this for real?

Are any of the components of APC switches interchangeable with vintage Alps and/or Matias switches?

Are you using the Dupont teflon dry lube that is sold in plastic squeeze bottles (as opposed to the spray can variety)?

Have you tried molybdenum disulfide dry lube?

So far, I have been using Super Lube 51010 synthetic oil applied with a small brush very sparingly. It works wonders on Alps that are exhibiting binding when the key is pressed off-center and imparts an overall smoothness. However, as deeyay pointed out, lubing can change the personality of the switch.
abrahamstechnology wrote:Anyways, Ive figured out why some Matiases physically stick. It's the stems. They are too tight, and every every now and then you get a switch that is too tight to the point of the keycap warping out the slider and it catching on the housing/leaf.

I have just now encountered this problem with a KBP V60 Type R with Matias Click switches. I replaced the stock keycaps with doubleshots from a Northgate Omnikey 101. After the replacement, several keys would not spring back to their original starting positions. I replaced the top switch components with parts from some Matias Click switches purchased several years ago and the problem was seemingly solved. However, I noticed some of the other keys were displaying some partial sticking. I tried dye-sub PBT caps from the following boards -- IBM 5140, IBM P770, and SGI Granite -- all of these worked fine with no sticking.

I agree with your assessment. Some keycaps seem to cause the sliders to expand and to catch in the top housings. It appears to be an issue with the sliders and/or top switch housings.

In addition, the keycaps the KBP is using with their Matias-switch keyboards fit much too tightly -- the caps are extremely difficult to remove.

1. Yes, it's for machinery control panels.

2. Just the sliders. The rest of the parts are unique to the switch and it's contacts.

3.Yes, I'm using the squeeze bottle.

4. No.

Yes, the tolerances of the Matias switches are too tight. I contact Matias about this and I advise we all do the same to they get this fixed.
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Unread post19 Nov 2018, 13:43

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@abrahamstechnology: Thanks for your replies!

I contacted Matias yesterday regarding issues with their switches. They replied today saying that they were aware of problems and were taking steps to correct them.

Regarding the problem with tight-fitting keycaps, they said that their switches are designed to work with Matias keycaps and that other Alps-mount keycaps might not fit properly.

I've found that dye-sub PBT Alps-mount keycaps from IBM P70, IBM 5140, and SGI granite keyboards fit Matias switches very well --easy to install and remove and with no added binding issues.

I also use Matias blank black ABS keycaps on Matias-switch and Alps-switch keyboards. The Matias caps are a bit tight, but they work okay. The Matias caps come in handy for use on contemporary standard boards and some vintage boards because you can get both 6.25 and 7.00 unit spacebars and corresponding modifiers from them.
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Unread post19 Nov 2018, 19:26

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Hypersphere wrote:The Matias caps come in handy for use on contemporary standard boards and some vintage boards because you can get both 6.25 and 7.00 unit spacebars and corresponding modifiers from them.

Nice, I didn't know that.
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Unread post19 Nov 2018, 20:08

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For what it's worth, Matias just made an update in the 60% thread on Geekhack that PBT keycap creation is finally finishing up. I'll believe it when I see it, but I actually believe that he is close.
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Unread post20 Nov 2018, 22:08

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