F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Ellipse · 31 Aug 2016, 01:39

Well what would the recommended/max. specs be for a solenoid that can be driven by just the xwhatsit Model F controller? I'll have to keep looking around.

Per xwhatsit, "This is primarily designed to interface with the Solenoid-Driver PCB (covered in a separate manual), however can be used with other buzzers, as long as they don’t source more than 20–30mA from the output pin (an example is the 4704 Kishsaver’s buzzer)."

lot_lizard · 31 Aug 2016, 02:21

I have been looking at this myself lately, and I think the real problem is going to be the solenoid itself. There are loads out there, but are tailored to robotics (mechanically pushing or pulling an external throw), and not clicking for the sake of just making noise (the legacy ones are a sealed unit). So we would likely need to have some developed. You could make an existing arm throw clack against a plate at a length shorter than its designed amount (would initially click faster, but you would still to wait for the same amount of time for the slower recoil unless you swap the spring too)... I tried this. About the output, I believe the ideal output from the solenoid driver is 9v if memory serves. But we could always tailor that based on the need of the solenoid (you would need to make new driver boards anyway). Would be an interesting exercise to take a legacy clicker, throw it over the wall to China, and say "how much to make this?!?"

y11971alex · 31 Aug 2016, 03:04

Aren't the solenoids just essentially generators that work in the reverse direction? They should be fairly simplistic to make.

lot_lizard · 31 Aug 2016, 03:19

y11971alex wrote: ↑Aren't the solenoids just essentially generators that work in the reverse direction? They should be fairly simplistic to make.

Just an a very simple electromagnet/inductor, the trick though is getting the right amount of coils, volts, amps, and resistance per mass of the rod they move to achieve the desired mechanical movement. If we were improving IBM's design, I would sacrifice mass of the throw (loudness), for speed. We type faster than our predecessors. No matter how well I tune the throw cycles, I get missed strokes on occasion (which mentally makes me think... What happened?!?). Desired character on the screen, but missed the click. You have to get going pretty fast before it occurs, but if you are making anyway...

Calling on EE wizards!!! Would love a flawless solenoid in Ellipse's already excellent looking product.

Ellipse · 04 Sep 2016, 00:07

We are 7 keyboards away from an even 300 keyboards ordered!

$135,000 in orders so far!

Yes, any help on the solenoid specifications would be appreciated! It might be best if someone could suggest a solenoid design that approaches the sound of IBM's solenoid yet meets the max. 20-30ma and other requirements of the xwhatsit controller. I can ask the factory if they can build it.

As a general update the barrels, flippers, capacitive PCBs, xwhatsit controller PCBs, case molds, and ribbon cables finished production and I need to get the die cast zinc cases themselves, the ultra compact cases, the key molds and keys themselves, and the inner assembly plates made. Unfortunately the die cast zinc case molds and cases have been a bottleneck these past couple months and that continues to put us behind my original schedule. We are now looking at these leaving China in November in my estimate

. I will not ship out anything that is below my standards for this project.

smudgers · 05 Sep 2016, 01:17

will the red case option be available in the 2nd/final run?

I thought I was going for the dark grey but now that I seen the red ... now I'm derailed.

Ellipse · 05 Sep 2016, 01:21

The red is a limited production run - it will just be made in the early round. Some people are ordering an extra case in True Red. There might be some leftovers in the final round but no guarantees.

Elrick · 05 Sep 2016, 07:54

smudgers wrote: ↑I thought I was going for the dark grey but now that I seen the red ... now I'm derailed.

Don't get hooked up with any colour preference so much, as I'm nearly colour blind like a dog, Red becomes darker than necessary. But a shade of Grey is far more enjoyable.

Plus, when I see it as Grey so will everyone else. Safer to always go Grey at every point in your Life

.

smudgers · 05 Sep 2016, 16:29

Ellipse wrote: ↑The red is a limited production run - it will just be made in the early round. Some people are ordering an extra case in True Red. There might be some leftovers in the final round but no guarantees.

In some ways I understand your point of view. For some of us however this sucks. I don't know about the other people out there but 2016 was the worst year for me. This year I got scammed in a total of 3 group buys (4 if you include dealing with GON) on various forums and I can't take it anymore. I'm not saying you are scammer but I would really feel more comfortable if a Model F expert in the community could try your prototypes before ordering from group 1.

Should this truly be a limited edition color if nobody has had the opportunity to receive any real world feedback yet?

Ellipse · 05 Sep 2016, 21:41

smudgers have you seen the Brand New Model F prototype keyboards fully working on YouTube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhMzoGcZ9Wo

Or the 100 or so production/prototype photos I posted on reddit/imgur? https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb ... t=irxcigwq

I have offered to set up a meet up in Manhattan to try out the F62/F77 prototypes, but there was no interest (anyone interested in a September or October meetup?).

Ellipse · 09 Sep 2016, 23:44

Here is a general production update as of today. The full list of configuration options and store items are on the http://www.modelfkeyboards.com web site.

SUMMARY OF EVERYTHING THIS BUY INCLUDES
* Basic keyboard models: F62, F77, Ultra Compact F62, Ultra Compact F77
* One-piece XT-style keycaps made from new molds, including Industrial SSK style blue keys - extra sets are also available separately
* Extra parts also available separately including Model F (AT) compatible barrels, flippers, cases, PCBs, inner foam, and inner assemblies
* Available layouts: ANSI: US and HHKB style with split backspace and regular non-split backspace. ISO: Vertical enter with a variety of international layout variants: Spanish, German, Nordic, French, UK, etc.

NOT YET STARTED PRODUCTION
* Ultra compact cases
* Key molds / keys / buckling springs
* Inner assembly plates
* Die cast zinc cases
* Boxes / inner foam / outside foam packaging

IN PRODUCTION
* Waiting for my approval on the die cast cases, then they will start production. Colors and powdercoating texture were rejected by me as being below my standards. Factory will be re-sending samples in the next week or so hopefully.

FINISHED PRODUCTION
* barrels
* flippers
* capacitive PCBs
* compact xwhatsit controllers
* case molds
* ribbon cables (to connect controllers to capacitive PCBs)

SHIPPED TO ME
* Current plan is for everything to be finished and shipped to me by the end of November.

ORDERS LOCKED
* Cases and other parts have been ordered, so please no major changes!

STILL CAN BE ORDERED
* Everything. I have ordered extra keyboards and parts for the early bird round, which will be ongoing while supplies last. Then there will be a final round for about a month after the early bird keyboards are delivered.

Ellipse · 13 Sep 2016, 02:21

Dye sublimation update and request for help:

I am beginning to review the dye sublimation samples (just photos for now, physical samples to follow in the coming weeks).

It is my understanding that a lot of the dye sublimation today on key caps may be done with some kind of 3D vacuum heat press with sublimation paper or sublimation film printed with inkjet printers and sublimation ink modded for these printers, as opposed to using a metal jig/holder firmly pressing the paper to the keys on an old style heat press. This may be why the legends are blurrier and less black on today's keys (also could be lower quality sublimation ink/paper/film or not letting the ink sublimate long enough). I am going to try for laser or offset printed legends on the sublimation paper/film if possible - could be what IBM did for their legends.

I want to get the dye sublimation right - if anyone has any advice or experience in this area please let me know.

Other than that, the factory is still reformulating the powdercoating paint to match the texture and colors more closely to the original IBM metal keyboards. The powdercoating texture of the samples was very professional and looked nice, but the match could be improved.

Below is the factory's first attempt for the legend quality - the placement is of course not correct. The left legend is IBM or Lexmark-printed and the right is their attempt. So far the legend quality to me looks much better than IBM/Lexmark's 1990s output, but possibly not up to the XT standards (when I see the sample caps in person in the coming weeks I will be able to better evaluate the dye sublimation quality).

: dye sub.jpg (142.16 KiB) Viewed 6649 times

Virtureal · 13 Sep 2016, 07:33

The legend looks good to my untrained eye, but I'm more curious about the keycaps themselves. Has molds been made yet?

Khers · 13 Sep 2016, 09:35

It's tricky to be conclusive when the photo they've provided you with is of such bad quality, but only taking the color into account, I agree that it does look better (more saturated) than the original legend on the cap. Having said that, however, I'm not a fan of the kerning in the new legend, which is far too tight in my opinion. I much prefer the original in that sense. The same goes for the size of both text and symbol, I think the new one are too small, the original one is a better match for the available space.

Ellipse · 13 Sep 2016, 13:03

Khers the font is just their test font; I have not provided them with the graphics. I expect the final font to look like the original XT caps.

We are still waiting on key cap molds. Please see a few posts above for my update summary.

Khers · 13 Sep 2016, 13:48

Great, no need to worry then

Imo, IBM got most legend aspects right with the Fs and early Ms, so mimicking that sounds like a very good decision.

Elrick · 15 Sep 2016, 03:33

Khers wrote: ↑Imo, IBM got most legend aspects right with the Fs and early Ms, so mimicking that sounds like a very good decision.

If you're going to re-create the Original keyboard then you MUST above all else, copy the original key-caps because that is everyone's first encounter when using an Ellipse Made Keyboard.

These new key-caps have to be the BEST Model-Fs ever made.

Ellipse · 17 Sep 2016, 06:23

Yep Elrick, at this point I'm probably going to buy the dye sub equipment and do the work myself to get the key quality right.

Elrick · 17 Sep 2016, 07:01

Ellipse wrote: ↑Yep Elrick, at this point I'm probably going to buy the dye sub equipment and do the work myself to get the key quality right.

Geezus H., I was joking, don't ever make the mistake of ever listening to me.

Have time to waste hence when I type something it's always in between shifts on a site and no thinking or contemplation is required.

Hence when I type something/anything it usually means nothing at all or like always, view my posts as bothersome flies that exist because they will always be there to provoke and annoy.

Don't start investing huge sums to meet some kind of imaginary goal or unattained perfection. As always, I'm taking the piss at everything related to keyboards here.

LewisR · 20 Sep 2016, 01:21

Has anyone created a font or illustrations of any original IBM caps' font?

I don't mean "they used Helvetica or some other font cause it looks close to it"; I mean a painstaking recreation of the original font(s). A good dye-subbing is imperative, but the font needs to be 99% authentic looking as well. That would take a large amount of work.

Ellipse · 23 Sep 2016, 22:34

LewisR that is what I intend to do myself. I will use the IBM XT / F122 6110344 keys and their design and thickness as the standard. 6110344 and XT nonstandard legends will be replaced with Model M 1391401 legends in the style of the XT/6100344.

The factory told me that they have finished the die casting for the zinc cases! Now they need to do the final CNC machining operations on those die cast cases, and then do the powdercoating. I still need to receive the powdercoating samples. I rejected the last powdercoating prototypes and they are starting from scratch - reformulating everything to get it right - color and texture.

: key texture and dye sub - good - with bad example keys O and K placed on top - Copy.jpg (510.11 KiB) Viewed 6216 times

Ellipse · 23 Sep 2016, 23:18

Also would anyone be interested in an industrial strength IP67 certified hard plastic carrying case for their F62/F77, with factory cut foam on the inside to fit the keyboard?

Similar to this: http://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=1 ... 1&format=2

I can offer them for $58.39 if there are 50 or more orders.

Ellipse · 24 Sep 2016, 07:30

Look at these nice powdercoated texture samples! The factory has finally done a good job with the samples. The industrial gray and silver gray textures could be improved a little. Of course I will get the actual samples soon for final approval.

They photographed each sample on top of an original IBM F 107 powdercoated case from August 1988 for comparison (I had sent them the case for them to match).

: Off-White Beige - Copy.jpg (297.6 KiB) Viewed 6029 times

: true red - Copy.jpg (392.27 KiB) Viewed 6029 times

: Black - Copy.jpg (404.62 KiB) Viewed 6029 times

: Industrial Gray - Copy.jpg (284.41 KiB) Viewed 6029 times

: Silver Gray - Copy.jpg (304.07 KiB) Viewed 6029 times

Vizir · 24 Sep 2016, 14:29

They look like a good match to the original look, and the red is beautiful!

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Ellipse · 24 Sep 2016, 18:40

And there is also a strong but lightweight polypropylene case, which is much lighter weight than the other case but not IP67 certified.

The lightweight cases would run $38 including custom cut foam in QTY 50 or more. The other cases themselves weigh about 10 pounds I think. These cases probably weigh a few pounds at most.

: case.jpg (297.1 KiB) Viewed 5909 times

Elrick · 25 Sep 2016, 09:32

Ellipse wrote: ↑The lightweight cases would run $38 including custom cut foam in QTY 50 or more. The other cases themselves weigh about 10 pounds I think. These cases probably weigh a few pounds at most.

case.jpg

Remember that which ever case you choose you have to send everything to places around the globe, hence the costs will accrue rapidly when the shipping parasites get something extremely heavy and important coming their way.

Don't cut the quality and features of the keyboard but for the carrying cases or packaging here, make it light as possible.

Also don't let this Group Buy extend further past April 2017 because our horrid regime wants to place a universal TAX on all imported items coming into this foul place.

Hence don't stretch this out further because not all of us live a in 'free' society willing to ignore what their peasants buy anymore.

Ellipse · 27 Sep 2016, 05:00

Elrick these cases do not affect the ship date or keyboard quality. The project bottlenecks are currently the die cast zinc case powdercoating/paint quality and the key molds which should hopefully get into production the week of 10/3.

It's possible that the keyboards ordered without keys and those ordered with custom key sets (original Model M/XT keys, APL, etc.) will be completely assembled a few weeks earlier than those with keys from the new molds - for those who wanted their keyboards earlier I may be able to arrange for DHL Express shipment (it will cost about $75 extra per keyboard). If anyone's interested please let me know.

Ellipse · 27 Sep 2016, 05:04

The samples shipped by DHL Express! I expect for them to arrive by early next week. A major improvement over the more glossy earlier samples.

As we wait for the factory to get back to me, I am working on the key legends. I am basing the F62/F77 keys on my one piece F 122 keys and XT keys.

Ellipse · 28 Sep 2016, 23:43

The factory now expects to start the key mold production and the production of the remaining parts the week of 10/10, after their holiday next week.

Some interesting data points about US manufacturing: I also looked into the possibility of US manufacturing, at least for the compact cases. A quote from a well known US-based firm was more than five times the cost of the project's current supplier in China. A PCB manufacturing quotation I got for the xwhatsit controllers a couple years ago was about ten times as costly if I recall correctly. And given the great quality control and tolerances that the Chinese supplier has adhered to so far, it's tough to imagine the parts could be improved any further for this project.

Orpheo · 29 Sep 2016, 11:47

Hello Ellipse,
If I understand correctly, early birds round is still open? If yes when will close 2nd round?