A new US Republican thread 2016

[seebart]

Wait webwit...I forgot to mention your "prime DT directive":

Spoiler:

FREE SPEECH

= post anything I want that's not offensive!

Your link does not work for me BTW...censorship???

Unbenannt.PNG (37.78 KiB) Viewed 3684 times

[andrewjoy]

Same for me on that link.

[webwit]

Some rampant ad scripts there breaking layout? My browser is blocking it. Text here:

Spoiler:

Greenwald: State Department promotion sends Iran war signal
Mike Sheehan
Published: Monday March 5, 2007
Print This Email This

The promotion of a neoconservative to a key position at the U.S. State Department may be yet another signal of impending war with Iran, Salon reports.

"As they have done many times before, neoconservatives, with Iran in their sights, have installed one of their own at State to block any war-avoiding rapprochement," writes Glenn Greewald for Salon.

Last Friday, Eliot Cohen was chosen by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to be new Counselor of the State Department.

"It is not hyperbole to say that Cohen is as extremist a neoconservative and warmonger as it gets," says Greenwald, who quotes a conservative writer's point that Cohen "was an early supporter of the military intervention in Iraq" and opposed negotiations with Iran and Syria.

Greenwald argues that Cohen is even "far more extremist than just that."

In a November 2001 Wall Street Journal column, says Greenwald, "Cohen criticized the attempts up to that point to name 'The new War' -- all the names chosen were far too limited and unglorious. Rejecting all the possibilities, Cohen insisted that 'a less palatable but more accurate name is World War IV.'"

Greenwald describes Cohen as having become "one of the most militant advocates of expanded regional war in the Middle East" in the years since 9/11.

"The Cohen appointment," he says, "is clearly another instance where neoconservatives place a watchdog in potential trouble spots in the government to ensure that diplomats do not stray by trying to facilitate rapproachments between the U.S. and the countries on the neoconservative War hit list."

Excerpts from the exclusive Salon article, available here, follow...
#

Cohen was most worried that Afghanistan would be the only real Churchillian war we would fight, rather than getting on with World War IV in all its glory: "if after the Afghan campaign ends, the government lapses into a covert war of intelligence-gathering, arrests, and the odd explosion in a terrorist training camp, it will be a sign that it would rather avoid calling things by their true name."

It likely goes without saying by now that the reason Iraq was so quickly at the forefront of Cohen's mind in the aftermath of 9/11 was because invading Iraq and changing its government was long one of Cohen's dreams, and the 9/11 attacks became the pretext dressed up as the "justification" for Cohen's dream to come true.

This continues to be the most astounding, significant, and alarming trend -- as the recognition grows even in Beltway elite media circles that the people who designed and sold the Iraq war to the American public are completely untrustworthy and discredited figures, they are exactly the ones who continue to exert the most influence, by far, on the President, and their influence seems only to be growing...

..."Why should the American people continue to believe in those same people who had so many misjudgments leading up to and executing the war?" They should not, of course. And we know exactly who "those same people" are. Eliot Cohen is not just one of them, but he is one of their leaders. He has been wrong about everything. If he had his way, we would have far more wars than we have already.
#

[fohat]

This looks like an exquisite example of an ad hominem attack.

I am no fan of Cohen, by any means, but the content and substance of the current Atlantic article is spot on.

At least we can hope that he is accurate, and, if so, his observations demonstrate that even those whose general views differ greatly from our own can still sometimes rationally evaluate what is in front of them.

[webwit]

This looks like an exquisite example of an ad hominem attack.

How convenient for you, now you can dismiss it completely.

[seebart]

Who do you not dismiss as a credible source webwit?

[jacobolus]

Eliot Cohen is a hard-liner military hawk. Friend of other Bush II neocon hawks like Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle, and Paul Wolfowitz. He was involved in the neocon “Project for the New American Century”, whose explicit goal is to protect US interests by projecting US power around the world.

Not really surprising that these guys are opposed to Trump. Trump is down with bombing people’s families for sport, but otherwise has no attention span to worry about US interests in general, only about winning 20-year-old grudge matches with B-list celebrities and forcing his own allies to grovel while he makes degrading comments about it.

Neocon hawks were arguably evil people, and many of their foreign policy choices were disastrous (cough Iraq war cough). In general we shouldn’t listen to their policy prescriptions. But for all that, they’re still not total morons. Cohen is a career scholar of military strategy, working in both academia and the civilian side of the US defense/state departments.

[andrewjoy]

Trump is isolationist , American first and all that, a little short sited but hardly anything evil.

I don't see Trump wanting to start wars around the world, he is the one who wants to improve relations with russia for example. The previous administration however needlessly expelled russian diplomats and there families now if Trump had done that everyone would be ripping him for it, Obama however its 100% fine he was " protecting" the US from evil russian hackers that we have no evidence even existed.

Meanwhile we do have plenty of evidence that the majority of terrorist attacks on the west are committed by muslims from this area, or influenced by groups in this area , for example 450 out of 452 suicide attacks committed in 2015 where by islamic extremists, so don't you think it makes sense to put a temporary block in place until better checks and processes can be put in place ?

This will protect not only US citizens but also members of the islamic community that are already there, they can also be killed or injured in attacks and or radicalised by people who will get in under the radar posing as refugees or economic migrants.

I also remember the phrase " can we not just drone strike him " ( referring to Edward Snowden ) being uttered by Clinton, so who is the most dangerous ?

[jacobolus]

andrewjoy: your comments exhibit unthinking cruelty towards innocent strangers. Based on whatever hateful false propaganda you have been reading/watching recently.

As an example of someone impacted who I have direct knowledge of: Right now, my parents are living in Mexico where my father is teaching graduate students, and renting out their house in California for a year to a lovely middle-aged Iranian professor who is spending a year on sabattical as an invited guest of a university in southern CA. His wife and daughter were traveling back home to Iran for a couple weeks. Now, even though the whole family had valid visas to live in the USA, the wife and daughter have been locked out of the country, and the professor has a choice to either give up his current work and return home, or not see his family for months.

Along similar lines, see the effect on mathematics, https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2017/01/ ... ive-order/

This is not making anyone safer. Indeed, it makes the USA less safe, by providing amazing recruiting material for terrorist and other anti-western or anti-American organizations, both in the Middle East and in the USA.

The USA is a nation of immigrants. My own ancestors were immigrants, as were fohat’s, Kurplop’s, etc. Mr. Trump’s ancestors were immigrants. His wife was an (illegal) immigrant. The members of his cabinet, GOP lawmakers, GOP voters, et al. are either immigrants themselves or the descendants of immigrants. The “American dream” is built around the acceptance of people from far-flung places coming to the US, starting with nothing, assimilating, and then succeeding by working hard together. Many of the largest and most successful companies in the world are located in the USA but were founded by immigrants, who were able to build their businesses in the USA rather than somewhere else because the US society and government welcomed their ideas and talents more than wherever they came from. Movie stars, sports stars, doctors, teachers, judges, politicians, scientists, writers, .... are immigrants. The founding mythos of America is centered around people who fled their homelands because of violence, persecution, or economic struggle so that they could move somewhere with more social, political, and economic freedom.

(We should of course mention the case of African slaves who were horrifically forced to migrate with many dying along the way and the rest treated sub-humanly for generations, and the indigenous American tribes who were massacred to make way for newcomers. Many in our society still have not come to grips with these shameful founding tragedies.)

Putting barriers in front of ambitious and talented people who want to come to your country to share their success with you is not something that successful countries do. It’s something that authoritarian backwaters do. It’s something aristocrats and oligarchs do who don’t want their grip on power threatened by successful newcomers. It’s something Putin does.

The only purpose of Mr. Trump’s “ban on Muslims” is to help Mr. Trump stroke his own ego with sadistic pleasure at inflicting senseless pain and violence on people who can’t fight back. Or perhaps to help the anti-semitic white supremacist Mr. Bannon reshape the society to reflect his hateful prejudices.

[andrewjoy]

How are my comments hateful ?

I even said its stupid to stop people who already have a visa or ties in the US , did you even read it ?

This is not a ' ban on muslims" its a 90 day block on a few countries whist better checks are put in place to let all the genuine skilled people in like the people you list , but keep the bad people out who can hurt everyone.

I was just wondering if you think its hateful for Israel to ban people from certain muslim countries? In fact all the folowing countries will not let you in if you have visited Israel

Afghanistan, Algeria, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen.

Or for Libya to close borders with Sudan Chad Niger and Algeria.

Or for the citizens of southern cyprus not being allowed into northern cyprus

Or for literally everyone to be blocked from north korea

And why bring up Slavery, contrary to the popular belief of the radical left there is no reason why anyone should feel guilty or have to virtue signal all over the place beacuse something happend in the past that they had nothing to do with, the sins of the father do not pass to the son this is not the Klingon Empire.

If you think this is facist , or evil or even out of the ordinary then you are fundamentally detached from reality.

[jacobolus]

Yes, current Israeli state policy is founded on hatred and fear, and current Israeli political leaders are hateful bigots. Israel is an apartheid state which suppresses the rights of its own Arab citizens, and tramples the rights of Arabs living in militarily occupied territories, perpetrating war crimes in using torture, murder, indefinite imprisonment without trials, collective punishment of innocent civilians, and so on. It only survives in its present condition because of the protection of the US government; as soon as US power is removed (or inevitably under the weight of demographic transition), Israel will need to radically soften its hateful approach towards its neighbors and its own citizens.

Libya is a country which just underwent a civil war, is suffering from a power vacuum, and is under the control of a mixture of different militia groups. Its elections a few years ago were neither free nor fair, and it suffers from ongoing large-scale violence. It goes without saying that hate is a significant driver of politics in such an environment.

Northern Cyprus is a territory which was invaded by Turkey in response to a Greek-backed coup on the island, and is still occupied by the Turkish army and run by a Turkish puppet government not recognized by any other world power. As a result northern Cyprus has been blocked from various international trade, etc. The ethnic groups in Cyprus were each forced to leave their homes and move to friendly territory, in fear of their lives. Hundreds of thousands of refugees present an ongoing political problem, decades later. There have been decades of efforts at reunification which have still not succeeded. Of course in such a context policy is driven by fear and distrust. As an American, I’m not really an expert on the details though.

North Korea is an authoritarian backwater run as the personal playground of a mentally unstable tyrant whose people are living in misery. It’s one of the most politically, socially, and economically broken places in the world.

I’m not sure why you picked such terrible examples, which all serve to prove my point. These are all examples of massive political failure and humanitarian calamity. Why would anyone want to copy such cases? “Let’s turn the USA into North Korea” is the stupidest campaign slogan I’ve ever heard in my life.

[kbdfr]

Without commenting the present discussion nor its tone , I would like to correct just a tiny point:

[…] Or for the citizens of southern cyprus not being allowed into northern cyprus […].

The Republic of Cyprus ("Southern Cyprus") not having recognized the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" ("Northen Cyprus"), they consider visiting it as not passing a frontier and therefore do not control it at all and even less forbid it.
Equally, inhabitants of the Northern side are not forbidden to visit the Southern side, but just have to present their passport on the Northern side without any control on the Southern side.

[webwit]

If people feel threatened or displaced by immigrants, why don't you give them a reservation and some casinos?

[seebart]

If people feel threatened or displaced by immigrants, why don't you give them a reservation and some casinos?

No, apparently that just applies to indigenous people that lived on that land before anyone else showed up!

[jacobolus]

Oh lookie, Republicans plan to vote to help oil companies hide their bribery of foreign governments http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/l ... corruption

(For anyone confused, this kind of thing is the true purpose of the institutional Republican party in the USA)

[andrewjoy]

"The bottom line is that this resolution is trying to address a problem that doesn’t exist.

All major domestic and foreign companies are now covered by the same non-burdensome reporting rules. Companies already track these payments. The rule places no limits or restrictions on whom companies can pay money to, how much, or what for. It has absolutely no regulatory effect on any aspect of their business operations."

So translation , there are other regulations that cover this and the resolution is superfluous to requirements.

It is important to keep an eye on this type of thing however , whist this one if you do look into it is not that terrible (as other regulations cover what will be scrapped), corruption is a major problem in US politics , isn't it Hilary .

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=leake ... e&ie=UTF-8

[Kurplop]

andrewjoy: your comments exhibit unthinking cruelty towards innocent strangers. Based on whatever hateful false propaganda you have been reading/watching recently.
_____________________________________________________________

For essentially all Americans, supporting or even passively condoning this order is tantamount to spitting on our own ancestors. Everyone living in a district or state with GOP congressmen or senators has a patriotic duty to call their representatives and make it clear that this is beyond the pale. (That means you, Kurplop. Despite your shameful vote for Trump, I have enough faith in your patriotism and self respect and basic humanity to expect you to come to the right side of history on this one.)

Jacobolus, was it your idea to be our consciences, or did the Blue Fairy appoint you to be our official Jiminy Crickets?

https://goo.gl/images/FXzlKM

I have an aversion to waiting in line to get through unnecessary bureaucratic red tape. That is one of many reasons I dislike excessive and invasive government interference. However, aside from the poor planning, appropriate vetting for entry into any country is commendable. I'm against various forms of bigotry but protecting our citizens by confirming that arrivals are not a threat is quite reasonable. Trump is obviously guilty of hasty and improper planning in order to insure a smooth transition of policy and that's the greater tragedy.

By the way, as soon as you place a key under your front doormat and hang a sign welcoming all comers, your insulting proclamations of altruism are laughable and lack credibility. Give my best to Pinocchio.

[jacobolus]

appropriate vetting for entry into any country is commendable. I'm against various forms of bigotry but protecting our citizens by confirming that arrivals are not a threat is quite reasonable.

This already happens. These are people who rearranged their lives and careers to come to the USA, were extensively vetted, waited through months or years of process (fingerprints, background checks, letters from Americans attesting to their skills and good character, interviews with US embassy staff, ...), and then made a life for themselves in the US as upstanding productive members of their communities, and now have had their lives flipped upside-down with zero notice. That is, Trump is taking their homes away, taking their careers away, taking their families away, in the case of people still in the US taking away their ability to travel abroad (for fear they can’t get back to their homes, careers, and families), etc.

If you think this is about “threats” you have been sold a bill of goods.

[kbdfr]

appropriate vetting for entry into any country is commendable. I'm against various forms of bigotry but protecting our citizens by confirming that arrivals are not a threat is quite reasonable.

This already happens. These are people who rearranged their lives and careers to come to the USA, were extensively vetted, waited through months or years of process (fingerprints, background checks, letters from Americans attesting to their skills and good character, interviews with US embassy staff, ...), and then made a life for themselves in the US as upstanding productive members of their communities, and now have had their lives flipped upside-down with zero notice. That is, Trump is taking their homes away, taking their careers away, taking their families away, in the case of people still in the US taking away their ability to travel abroad (for fear they can’t get back to their homes, careers, and families), etc. […]

I think this aspect will be corrected over time. A solution will probably be found for foreign US residents, for their families, for foreign scientists or business people not suspect of terrorist contacts and so on.

The point is: it will not make it better.

The IS already jubilates because the ban, being perceived as an anti-Muslim measure, will boost recruitment - including among Muslim US citizens (like the perpetrator of the Orlando shooting).
And of course even the best wall, the best immigration control, the best secured borders will not prevent people who have the necessary financial and logistical background from entering the US if they really want. Those who do will be the most motivated and best prepared killers.

[seebart]

The point is: it will not make it better.

The IS already jubilates because the ban, being perceived as an anti-Muslim measure, will boost recruitment - including among Muslim US citizens (like the perpetrator of the Orlando shooting).
And of course even the best wall, the best immigration control, the best secured borders will not prevent people who have the necessary financial and logistical background from entering the US if they really want. Those who do will be the most motivated and best prepared killers.

Agreed, the whole immigration ban seemed rushed and hence chaotic for everyone. On the subject of walls; during an interview with Trump just before his inauguration german Bild editor Diekmann gave Donald Trump an actual piece of the Berlin wall with famous signatures of Bush senoir, Gorbachev and Kohl:

C2RjFB5W8AAGDdf.jpg (91.15 KiB) Viewed 3460 times

It also says under the picture that a bomb dog inspected the piece of Berlin wall before they took it into Trump's office!

[vivalarevolución]

On a related note, I'm very near the border this week for vacation and have spent some time on the Rio Grande looking at Mexico. I haven't seen anyone try to sneak across the border and a wall would be plain stupid in many locations. Plus, it would ruin the scenic views.

I'll be going to Mexico tomorrow. I'll keep an eye out for all those bad people our president has mentioned. But I have sneaking suspicion that it's mostly normal people doing normal things. Just a hunch.

[fohat]

On a related note, I'm very near the border this week for vacation and have spent some time on the Rio Grande looking at Mexico. I haven't seen anyone try to sneak across the border and a wall would be plain stupid in many locations. Plus, it would ruin the scenic views.

I'll be going to Mexico tomorrow. I'll keep an eye out for all those bad people our president has mentioned. But I have sneaking suspicion that it's mostly normal people doing normal things. Just a hunch.

With that attitude you may not get back in.

[vivalarevolución]

On a related note, I'm very near the border this week for vacation and have spent some time on the Rio Grande looking at Mexico. I haven't seen anyone try to sneak across the border and a wall would be plain stupid in many locations. Plus, it would ruin the scenic views.

I'll be going to Mexico tomorrow. I'll keep an eye out for all those bad people our president has mentioned. But I have sneaking suspicion that it's mostly normal people doing normal things. Just a hunch.

With that attitude you may not get back in.

Good point. I'll make sure to throw a compliment I'm the direction of the border patrol and say how happy I am to be back. Maybe that will help.

[jacobolus]

Trump just called the Mexican president and threatened to invade with the US military.

Anyone want to defend that one?

[002]

Is it true?
http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-ame ... story.html

[jacobolus]

The Mexican President certainly can’t admit to the public that Trump threatened to invade and he didn’t say anything back.

It’s not clear who the AP’s source was, so who knows. The AP wouldn’t print it if they didn’t think it was true, but it’s possible someone in Trump’s administration was leaking fake stories just to screw with him.

On the other Trump bumbles foreign policy story today, where he first berated the Australians for a refugee deal, and then hung up the phone halfway through the scheduled conversation when he was challenged, there has been apparent confirmation of the story from both sides. (Not to mention from Trump’s Twitter feed.)

[jacobolus]

P.S. in other lovely Republican news today, the House voted to undo an Obama administration rule preventing coal mines from dumping toxic byproducts into waterways.

I guess that’s just a warmup for abolishing the EPA, eliminating the Endangered Species Act, and granting drilling permits in National Parks.

[seebart]

Trump just called the Mexican president and threatened to invade with the US military.

Anyone want to defend that one?

No.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow ... story.html

[002]

On the other Trump bumbles foreign policy story today, where he first berated the Australians for a refugee deal, and then hung up the phone halfway through the scheduled conversation when he was challenged, there has been apparent confirmation of the story from both sides. (Not to mention from Trump’s Twitter feed.)

Yeah I heard about that. I didn't read much about why we're offloading the asylum seekers on you guys though.
Turnbull is in the news for other reasons today after it came to light that he donated 1.7 million dollars to the Liberal party during the election cycle. Not sure what I think about that...it's his own money I guess and it's a bit of a gamble. Can your politicians do that?

[002]

No. Got any sources?

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government ... bres-dont/
And before you completely dismiss it because it's Breitbart, just read it and draw your own big boy conclusions.

But maybe don't read the comments...lol