iphony

User avatar
chuckdee

08 Sep 2016, 21:00

^ That's exactly a point that I was making. The reason behind Apple's moves are not to move into the future. The reason behind their proprietary connection wasn't performance- if there were any performance benefits, they were secondary. The reason is control, and to lock you into the ecosystem. the same with the 3.5 jack.
SL89 wrote: Well considering Xiaomi, OnePlus, and other OEM's run it, a fair number. I'm not talking about flashing anything, just new out of the box, without google.

It should be on the shoulders of the user to make choices that effect them. And like you said, vote with your money. If you want less invasive/monopolistic stuff, then pay for less invasive/monopolisitic/whatever stuff.

Making demands of companies and saying 'it should be on YOU' isnt gonna change their want to keep things in the ecosystem. Esp when an overwhelming majority of users clearly don't care.
Like I said, I'm the support person for 5 people and multiple devices. The things that you mention are still fringe, as much as people might want to think otherwise. The point is, all of this shouldn't be necessary. And to say that it should be on the user, is to give the companies a pass.

User avatar
SL89

08 Sep 2016, 22:49

I agree about the DRM, its pervasive. Its pretty impossible to use a Chromium build without the DRM friendly codecs these days. The whole lockdown of accessories is old news for Apple, again the iPod history and the introduction of firewire are two other great examples.

And that is your use case, until those 5 people all care about issues like DRM, privacy, paywalls, or software freedom its pretty much a moot point. You spoke of talking with your dollars, maybe it's fringe, but it's the only viable alternative. Saying its giving the companies a pass is akin to ignoring Linux and just making demands of Apple and OSX or Windows and Win10, but throwing money at them anyway. The companies will do whatever they want until people's opinions force them to change their business practices, which is a very very unlikely thing to have happen. This is just another unfortunate thing being ramrodded down the throats of consumers, but they love it and keep on paying for it despite the issues.

andrewjoy

08 Sep 2016, 22:50

matt3o wrote: — OMG the new iPhone has no audio jack! We are all gonna DIEEE!
— buy another phone
— Are you crazy?! It's my RIGHT to own iPhone! Now I want my money of all the iPhones I owned back! Let's start a petition! Occupy Apple Store!
— And what do you think about Trump?
— Whatever

https://oneplus.net/uk/3

Your welcome

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

08 Sep 2016, 23:34

Excellent article.

Personally, I have a huge music collection, going back to LPs that I purchased in the 1960s. In the early 2000s I got a good sound card and started ripping my entire collection of LPs and CDs to digital (I used .MP3 at 192 or better bit rate, probably at least as good as my ears can do) little by little as I played them while I worked at my computer. It took at least a decade, but now I have them on a dedicated hard drive, clean, legit, and clear of DRM, arranged by directory just like on the shelf (E:\Music Archive\Rock\Beatles\1966 Revolver\01 - Taxman.MP3, etc).

I don't know what libraries and playlists are, but they sound goofy and cumbersome.

If (when?) I can't keep a music collection in my phone (currently I have an 8GB micro USB stuck in my Galaxy) it will be disappointing, but my "real serious permanent collection" will be safe and free and unsullied as long as I have something to plug an external hard drive into.

User avatar
chuckdee

08 Sep 2016, 23:56

SL89 wrote: I agree about the DRM, its pervasive. Its pretty impossible to use a Chromium build without the DRM friendly codecs these days. The whole lockdown of accessories is old news for Apple, again the iPod history and the introduction of firewire are two other great examples.

And that is your use case, until those 5 people all care about issues like DRM, privacy, paywalls, or software freedom its pretty much a moot point. You spoke of talking with your dollars, maybe it's fringe, but it's the only viable alternative. Saying its giving the companies a pass is akin to ignoring Linux and just making demands of Apple and OSX or Windows and Win10, but throwing money at them anyway. The companies will do whatever they want until people's opinions force them to change their business practices, which is a very very unlikely thing to have happen. This is just another unfortunate thing being ramrodded down the throats of consumers, but they love it and keep on paying for it despite the issues.
There is ideal, and there is practical.

When you are dealing with your 80 year old mother who just wants a phone,

do you err on the side of if you do it this way, she'll have access to her things she bought no matter what- even if she can't get what she really wants because its not on one of the fringe app stores? And if you need to upgrade because a vulnerability, you have to do it? Or if she has a problem, and has to call someone with the phone company because it's something that you don't have the knowledge or access to fix, and they say that they can't support that phone... (I've had that happen when I was trying to go down this path).

Or, do you err on the side if it just works, and it's supported?

And should that choice even be a necessity?

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

10 Sep 2016, 20:16

Does anybody want to buy some headphones?

While I remember reading awhile back that Apple makes more profit per device than any other computer manufacturer, I am more convinced than ever that they actually are in the adapter business.

User avatar
Spikebolt
√(4) != -2

20 Sep 2016, 11:23

I feel bad for all those audiophiles out there. Digital audio, hundred (thousand?) dollar headphone, connected to a shitty 10$ DAC. Your audiophile alternative is now Beats. Sad.

User avatar
Khers

20 Sep 2016, 11:30

There's always the camera adapter for connecting your DAC ;)

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

20 Sep 2016, 11:45

A renowned German IT magazine tested the lightning-audio adapter and found it to be clearly worse than the internal jack of the 6s. Kinda annoyed because my contract is running out and I kinda have to get a new phone. First hand iffon7 report soon ;)

User avatar
HAL

20 Sep 2016, 12:00

My camera(s) take(s) real good pictures.
My audio player plays music really loud.
My phone just works as a phone (i.e. talk/text/internet)
Together with all the other EDC stuff I only carry about 5kg with me:
keys, sunglasses, shoes, drinking bottle, money, flash light... :lol:

User avatar
Spikebolt
√(4) != -2

20 Sep 2016, 12:23

Khers wrote: There's always the camera adapter for connecting your DAC ;)
I don't own an iPhone so this is a non-issue for me, but the who hell wants to carry an adapter + DAC in the pocket? I mean there are people carrying pocket amps but this is getting out of control :D
Last edited by Spikebolt on 20 Sep 2016, 13:01, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Chyros

20 Sep 2016, 12:30

Spikebolt wrote:
Khers wrote: There's always the camera adapter for connecting your DAC ;)
I don't own an iPhone so this is a non-issue for me, but the hell wants to carry an adapter + DAC in the pocket? I mean there are people carrying pocket amps but this is getting out of control :D
Especially for a product from a company that famously prides itself on all their stuff being as small and thin as possible (and made out of monolithic aluminium).

User avatar
Khers

20 Sep 2016, 13:41

Chyros wrote:
Spikebolt wrote:
Khers wrote: There's always the camera adapter for connecting your DAC ;)
I don't own an iPhone so this is a non-issue for me, but the hell wants to carry an adapter + DAC in the pocket? I mean there are people carrying pocket amps but this is getting out of control :D
Especially for a product from a company that famously prides itself on all their stuff being as small and thin as possible (and made out of monolithic aluminium).
The keywords here are "their stuff" :D

Whether a subset of users think that it's necessary to carry an extra device around with them or not is not an issue of Apple's. It's rather the opposite, in eschewing features such as a 3.5mm jack, the device can be made even thinner and, perhaps important to Jony Ive, increase its symmetry. Those are values to Apple. As are selling devices; they need to create a market for their new Airpods after all. Thus, tossing the 3.5mm jack is the logical thing to do.

I think that, as per usual, Apple is ahead of the curve in throwing out stuff they deem ancient. People are moaning now, but other phone manufacturers are probably going to walk along the same path in the not too distant future. Audio is already wireless to a large extent, why have redundancy and error prone physical contacts? :mrgreen:

Personally, I'm no fan of Apple throwing out the 3.5mm, but it will not stop me from buying a new iPhone. Just like the majority of users, I will learn to adapt, I'll just have to pick up some BT NC headphones along with the phone.

User avatar
Spikebolt
√(4) != -2

20 Sep 2016, 16:13

Like everything in life: to each their own. I'd rather keep using my Philips Fidelio X1 without carrying any adapter so I'll keep buying phones that support it even it costs me 1mm thickness.

User avatar
chuckdee

20 Sep 2016, 16:24

From the other side, it will stop me from buying. Because I do carry around other equipment and use my iphone as my central controller for much to do with music. See ikmultimedia.com for some examples of hardware that people do carry around for that purpose. I've already been divesting myself of apple... this just means that total divestiture is closer than I'd thought.

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fohat
Elder Messenger

20 Sep 2016, 16:30

Being an old-fashioned kind of guy, I like having the proper gear for various situations and don't worship "one-size-fits-all" (with preferred goal shrinking that "size" to zero) as an endgame.

A phone is a phone, a camera is a camera, and a stereo is a stereo. While my Galaxy does some of these things surprisingly well, my early-1970s Nortel dial phone is the best phone I have ever used, my camera takes better photos than my phone, and I have a 1970s-80s-vintage stereo set-up (including turntable) that produces music that is far better (ie warmer and richer) than anything that comes out of the computer.

That said, I like the convenience of having a copy of my entire music collection on a hard drive that I can enjoy on through a Creative X-Fi sound card and a mid-grade Logitech 5.1 speaker system - without getting up from my desk.

There is a place for all these things, but the little thing in my pocket is only a shadow copy of the "real deal"

User avatar
chuckdee

20 Sep 2016, 17:28

It might be a "shadow copy" and you might like to listen to your music sitting at your desk, but there are other applications than just listening to a recording. And that's what I referred to. If you're doing gigs all over the place, having something with the appropriate fidelity in the appropriate size is very key. Bluetooth audio protocol is lossy, meaning that some of the data is lost. However, it is digital, meaning that the audio reproduction in the headset is bit-exact the same data that was transmitted.

But different people have different uses, and needs. And we'll see how that plays out. Did well for Game Boy Advance SP. Or at least not a disaster. Well, not a total disaster. Even though, somehow, they got around their 'technical limitations' in the next iteration and re-introduced the 3.5mm jack. I suppose that says something, though what, I couldn't say.

User avatar
Spikebolt
√(4) != -2

20 Sep 2016, 19:45

My phone is my on the go Music player. While I kinda agree that a device for each purpose is usually better I don't really want to get a portable music player when my phone already gives me what I want. I have a better setup at home as well but I can't use it on the bus or at work. Having a phone with Spotify just suits my needs.

User avatar
SL89

20 Sep 2016, 21:33

oh wow this thread is still going:

back to the 80 year old family member, i do deal with that. and they both have flip phones, no need to give a needlessly complex device to someone who just wants a phone.

User avatar
chuckdee

20 Sep 2016, 22:01

SL89 wrote: oh wow this thread is still going:

back to the 80 year old family member, i do deal with that. and they both have flip phones, no need to give a needlessly complex device to someone who just wants a phone.
I don't give them anything. They get what they want. And I answer questions as they have them.

User avatar
chuckdee

20 Sep 2016, 22:03

SL89 wrote: oh wow this thread is still going:

back to the 80 year old family member, i do deal with that. and they both have flip phones, no need to give a needlessly complex device to someone who just wants a phone.
I don't give them anything. They get what they want. And I answer questions as they have them.

But what the entirety of the conversation was about wasn't about what they have. But rather about the idea that if we don't want the downsides, there are options other than the google app store and direct android updates.

User avatar
SL89

20 Sep 2016, 22:16

Different strokes for different folks. They all have ipads too, but very much subscribe to the ethos fohat put forth. Single use items for each individual use.

There are other options, even if they non optimal for your use case.

User avatar
chuckdee

20 Sep 2016, 23:05

SL89 wrote: Different strokes for different folks. They all have ipads too, but very much subscribe to the ethos fohat put forth. Single use items for each individual use.

There are other options, even if they non optimal for your use case.
Just because there are different use cases outside the norms, does that make the arguments not valid? As I said, I'm not demanding that they do anything. Just putting out there that there are more use cases than they consider. And many of those people will indeed choose to just move on, no matter the hardships involved in doing so. And indeed complain about the fact that they have systematically chosen to lock people in to the ecosystem, and after doing so, choose not to cater to the fact that at every turn, they try to reinforce this walled garden mentality.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

21 Sep 2016, 03:13

Khers wrote:
Spikebolt wrote:
Khers wrote: There's always the camera adapter for connecting your DAC ;)
Especially for a product from a company that famously prides itself on all their stuff being as small and thin as possible (and made out of monolithic aluminium).
The keywords here are "their stuff" :D

Whether a subset of users think that it's necessary to carry an extra device around with them or not is not an issue of Apple's. It's rather the opposite, in eschewing features such as a 3.5mm jack, the device can be made even thinner and, perhaps important to Jony Ive, increase its symmetry. Those are values to Apple. As are selling devices; they need to create a market for their new Airpods after all. Thus, tossing the 3.5mm jack is the logical thing to do.

I think that, as per usual, Apple is ahead of the curve in throwing out stuff they deem ancient. People are moaning now, but other phone manufacturers are probably going to walk along the same path in the not too distant future. Audio is already wireless to a large extent, why have redundancy and error prone physical contacts? :mrgreen:

Personally, I'm no fan of Apple throwing out the 3.5mm, but it will not stop me from buying a new iPhone. Just like the majority of users, I will learn to adapt, I'll just have to pick up some BT NC headphones along with the phone.
This move mostly is to get a return on their investment in Beats, plain and simple, I don't think their main concern is moving on from ancient stuff. But they have a large enough market share, they could move the industry forward. Most consumers will listen to music on their phones, anyways, and just buy a cheap pair of bluetooth headphones. Dedicated music players and decent headphones have become a niche for audiophiles.

We are humans, resistant to change, but creatures of convenience. Most of us will adjust to whatever is convenient, regardless of our initial grumblings. Most of us are what moves the market, not the few nerds like us that grumble on Internet message boards.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

21 Sep 2016, 04:28

vivalarevolución wrote:
not the few nerds like us that grumble
Yes, I can't stand to type with my thumbs on a little piece of glass.

carineff

03 Nov 2016, 10:30

Personally, i like Android os much better

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

03 Nov 2016, 10:54

carineff wrote: Personally, i like Android os much better
I've never tried iOS or Windows phone, I hear pretty good things about the latter though. Android has come far, I'm not a user that trusts Google in any way, I use custom andoid builds like Cyanogen Mod. It is actually possible to use Android without any Google aplications. Google's recent Pixel devices are an expensive joke using the same old Qualcomm kernel for the Snapdragon 821 which is really just a minor update to the 820. I can run Android Nougat on my Nexus 5 stable now if I choose, so why dish out $1000 for a Pixel that is technically not innovative in any way? Apart from that Google will still have serious OEM fragmentation problems whatever they do, huge amounts of users are stuck with old Android versions due to their devices not getting updates. Crazy.

andrewjoy

03 Nov 2016, 11:28

I have never used the new windows 10 phone OS , have i seen it and use it to help people to connect to wifi or whatever and i am impressed how fast it works on very low powered phones and how smooth it is in general but the UI is terrible.

I like iOS , i use it on my old iPad 2 all the time and i am very happy with it , i don't like that its so limited to what you can do but for the general users its totally fine.

I like the fact that with android i can just plug it in and transfer files or copy over an app and install it.

I also much prefer how android works and how if there is a cool new thing i can use it right away without having to wait multiple OS versions to get simple things like copy and paste. I also like that i have more choice of handsets and have the exact same OS on it, just like a PC. If OnePlus fuck up and remove the audio jack i can just get a HTC or something and put cyanogen or whatever on it , import my settings and i am good.

However, if i ran a business i would get people iPhones , you can control them from a central point without special software prevent installs of apps or prevent updates to the latest OS that does not work :P.

If i had to use my own app however i would use android as fuck you are your stupid store apple.

carineff

04 Nov 2016, 04:44

seebart wrote:
carineff wrote: Personally, i like Android os much better
I've never tried iOS or Windows phone, I hear pretty good things about the latter though. Android has come far, I'm not a user that trusts Google in any way, I use custom andoid builds like Cyanogen Mod. It is actually possible to use Android without any Google aplications. Google's recent Pixel devices are an expensive joke using the same old Qualcomm kernel for the Snapdragon 821 which is really just a minor update to the 820. I can run Android Nougat on my Nexus 5 stable now if I choose, so why dish out $1000 for a Pixel that is technically not innovative in any way? Apart from that Google will still have serious OEM fragmentation problems whatever they do, huge amounts of users are stuck with old Android versions due to their devices not getting updates. Crazy.
ACtually, these things can be explained by the fact that Android is an open source Os (more open than ios)
Any developer can sell/put their app to Google Play market with a fee of $75 (I'm not really sure about that but i remember the fee is very small). Android is an open source, developer can generate apk directly from Play Store via this site, for instance, mod this file, or do anything with this, rename app/game and put it again on Play store. on iOS, things is not so easy, It's much harder to put app/game on AppStore. That's the reason why you can find some nice apps on Play store, but not on AppStore (Clean Master, CM Backup....) and developers could earn much/download from Appstore than from Google Play.
More updates from Android than iOS
As for Google pixel, i'm not really interested in this phone, I see almost all Brands the same, even Huawei or some brands from China, What i care is hardware specs. anything could be done with XDA forums.

User avatar
Mr.Nobody

14 Dec 2016, 03:03

It doesn't even matter even if there is no screen... As long as there is an Apple logo on it, still iPhonies will buy.

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