Calculator Issues

[Ace]

Hey there guys. I have a small ongoing dilemma regarding my choice of calculator for this school year.

Now, if you've been to school or college within the last 25 years, there's a decent chance that you've heard of TI, or Texas Instruments. If you have, you've also probably used their calculators. If you have, it was likely either a Ti-83 or it's similar sequel, a Ti-84. Those of you who've used these will also certainly remember that they were built like a tank.

Recently, in 2015, newer version of the Ti-84 was released. This version, called the Ti-84 CE, includes a color screen, a thinner design, and a much faster processor complete with several times the RAM. It seemed pretty good, so I sold my Ti-84 and bought the CE. I am now seriously regretting it.

Although the CE has extremely positive reviews, no one mentions its fatal flaw: It's build quality sucks compared to every previous model. I hate how it's extremely thin and made of cheap plastic. I'm afraid to throw it in my bag and carry it around cause it looks and feels like it'll snap in half if my book happen to tilt towards the back pouch.

I'm posting this here because the situation somewhat reminded me of the history of keyboards and their gradual drop in quality... and how no one seemed to care.

There's another Ti-84 that looks a bit more appealing. It's a 2013 model with a color screen but the same old crappy processor, making it even slower than the B&W I've used for half a decade. I'm considering just swapping mine with a schoolmate who has the 2013 version, as it has the same build and bulk of the original. I just wanted to ask y'all's opinion here: do you think having less speed/features but superior build is better than having more speed/features but inferior build, or vica versa.

[adhoc]

I have had a TI 89 for nearly a decade now. It's gotten me through college and work on a day to day basis and still runs no problem without a single mark or scratch. It's a great calculator with very nice feedbacky buttons and can do pretty much anything (or at least, I haven't ran into a thing that this calculator couldn't do yet).

I can't but recommend it. Sell off your old one and get this one instead. Who needs a colour screen on a calculator?

[Ace]

I have had a TI 89 for nearly a decade now. It's gotten me through college and work on a day to day basis and still runs no problem without a single mark or scratch. It's a great calculator with very nice feedbacky buttons and can do pretty much anything (or at least, I haven't ran into a thing that this calculator couldn't do yet).

I can't but recommend it. Sell off your old one and get this one instead. Who needs a colour screen on a calculator?

The TI-89 is an excellent device, but it's too advanced for me. I'm currently in 12th grade (final year prior to college in the USA) and enrolled in AP Calculus BC, the college equivalent for Calc 1 & 2. Since the 89 can do practically everything the teacher's trying to teach us at this stage, it's a no-go in our classroom. And I'd rather not "future proof" myself, because even if I decide to get the 89, I'd have to re-learn the syntax. It's hard enough trying to do college apps AND the hardest high school math course at once. I'd rather not try to learn a new calc on top of it.

[adhoc]

Ah, gotcha! Yeah, I kind of forgot about that, it's been a while since I finished postgrad and especially at work, nobody cares what calc you use I'm sorry, I don't have experience with other TI's. When you can make the switch, I can only recommend the TI-89 (Titanium), it's really great.

[Ace]

Ah, gotcha! Yeah, I kind of forgot about that, it's been a while since I finished postgrad and especially at work, nobody cares what calc you use I'm sorry, I don't have experience with other TI's. When you can make the switch, I can only recommend the TI-89 (Titanium), it's really great.

I will most definitely make the switch whenever I can. When I sold my normal 84, I was really tempted by the 89. I was gonna get it, but after reminding myself that it'd basically prevent me from learning the content properly, I changed my mind.

[Khers]

I use a Casio fx-82 whenever I need a calculator. I've never really understood the point of all these advanced calculators with fancy colors and graphics displays. If neither my head nor my trusty Casio can solve the problem at hand, I have zero inclination to go find my old graphical calculator - I go for a computer instead (using python, matlab, mathematica or even wolfram alpha depending on the task at hand), offering both a better input and vastly better performance.

[adhoc]

I use a Casio fx-82 whenever I need a calculator. I've never really understood the point of all these advanced calculators with fancy colors and graphics displays. If neither my head nor my trusty Casio can solve the problem at hand, I have zero inclination to go find my old graphical calculator - I go for a computer instead (using python, matlab, mathematica or even wolfram alpha depending on the task at hand), offering both a better input and vastly better performance.

"I don't need it, therefore nobody needs it."

[Ace]

I use a Casio fx-82 whenever I need a calculator. I've never really understood the point of all these advanced calculators with fancy colors and graphics displays. If neither my head nor my trusty Casio can solve the problem at hand, I have zero inclination to go find my old graphical calculator - I go for a computer instead (using python, matlab, mathematica or even wolfram alpha depending on the task at hand), offering both a better input and vastly better performance.

The biggest factors are that I've yet to go into college, thus I've yet to learn how to properly make use of a PC's computational power, and the fact that you can't use such software resources in class or on the go.

[chzel]

I can't but recommend it. Sell off your old one and get this one instead. Who needs a colour screen on a calculator?

"I don't need it, therefore nobody needs it."

Oh the irony...

I've been using an fx-82 solar for ages...

[citrojohn]

Build quality is a feature, included in a similar way to the others, and to be considered along with the others - unfortunately it can't be easily quantified for use by under-knowledgeable marketing people, so it tends to get missed off quite early. I'd go for build quality every time (after all, if the thing breaks you won't have any features) - unless you think you may want an excuse to get a different calculator soon! For the occasional bit of advanced work there's always Wolfram Alpha, Mathematica, and "that guy" with the top-of-the-range calculator who will be pleased to show it off.

(Just don't take build quality too far, or you'll end up with a Curta - and you'll never draw graphs with that.)

Two anecdotes from my life to further illuminate:

1) When I was in the sixth form (about US 11th grade, I think) I was very attracted to one of the early colour-screen calculators (a Casio CFX-9800), but the extra £50 over the £80 mono version wasn't affordable. When I got to university I met someone who owned my so-desired CFX, and neither of us could get it to do anything useful with colours...

2) My first scientific calculator was a hand-me-down from my grandfather. (I was so fascinated by the design and the solar panel, he quixotically gifted it to me.) I carried it around in my school bag for three years and greatly enjoyed using the short-travel function keys, until one day the square root key became unreliable. OK, so just raise to the power 0.5, but I knew it was time for a new calculator when all the keys down the right-hand side went. And when I look at the design knowing what I know now, I can hardly be surprised:

Casio fx-451 calculator

15092016012.jpg (263.08 KiB) Viewed 6908 times

A membrane protected only by foam and plasti-leather was never going to survive a daily squashing among books and sports kit.

[Ace]

Ironically enough, I'm beginning to like the TI-84 CE. After I made this post last night, I decided that I would just stop caring and rough use it anyway. What's the worst that could happen? And that's just what I did today in Chemistry. I just used it without thinking about it, and I ended up realizing that I liked using it just as well as I did the old one.

Another ironic undertaking of the day...
This thread renewed my interest in the Ti-89. I decided to inquire about it again, and I was informed of some new information: It's actually ALLOWED on the AP Calc BC exam, AND on the SAT (which I may retake in order to improve my chances of being accepted into UT Austin).

Long story short, I ironically no longer have any issue with my 84, and would instead like to ask if anyone on here has an 89 they'd like to sell. I wouldn't mind getting used to it and using on the AP Exam.

[XMIT]

First off, I'm sorry for the mess that is the high school calculator racket. Realize that the BOM cost for something like a TI-84 or whatever is like $10.

The TI-89 is the best bang per buck for high school "needs". The best time to buy them is in May-June when everyone else is selling theirs off. Sometimes you can pick one up for $50, less if you're handy with a soldering iron and can fix some of the trivial issues. Check out ticalc.org for more info.

But this being a keyboard forum, clearly you want the calculator with the best keyboard, and that would be the HP 48.

In real life engineers use Matlab, or Mathematica or Maple or some custom thing written in Python using NumPy or in Fortran. Once you get to college the calculator usually becomes a toy.

Good luck getting into UT, it's a tough school to get into.

[face]

In real life engineers use Matlab, or Mathematica or Maple or some custom thing written in Python using NumPy or in Fortran. Once you get to college the calculator usually becomes a toy.

I am an aerospace engineer in the making - I use the Casio fx991DE X, many use the Casio fx991ES plus, since these are the best non-programmable calculators that you are allowed to use in tests. A graphical or programmable calculator would be totally senseless for me, I am afraid (used to own one, but gave it away).

Many of the phd students got this thing lying on their desks, as it is sometimes much faster than computer programs. But yes, for serious needs you use Matlab e.g., far superior. I am using the Casio in class and for fast stuff (polar in angular, smaller matrix multiplication, checking a tangens, something like this) and Matlab for anything else. Although it is numerical based and this is sometimes a small drawback - also, its 80000€ in the version I use it. If you aren't in college, it's very hard to afford. When near to a PC I also use WoframAlpha (computing integrals and stuff). Would like to try Mathematica in the future.

That said, I would opt for the best build quality, because you can do everything that you can do on a graphical calculator much better on a PC.

[XMIT]

My favorite calculator growing up was the Casio FX 6300G. Good luck finding one now. It was a tiny, thin, programmable, graphing calculator with excellent key action. It looked like a cheap ordinary calculator. I may still have mine somewhere.

As a software engineer now - whenever I need to make a quick calculation I'll either use gdb or an interactive Python shell, or occasionally "dc" on the command line.

The HP 15c is great. I can't believe I missed out on getting a Limited Edition one in 2012. I use an HP 12c or my phone when I need to make a quick calculation.

Maxima, a computer algebra system, runs great on my Android phone.

[davkol]

I find the way Texas Instruments have positioned themselves in the US education system outrageous. It's ironic, that meanwhile basically the rest of the world enjoys the benefits of actual competition, and reasonably priced calculators esp. from Casio are perfectly usable.

I went through high school with Casio fx-570ES and it was more than enough despite some rough edges here and there. Then I got TI-89 Titanium "for life", but I've never really used it. A calculator is completely useless in computer science. In fact, it was already half-useless in high school. Because, y'know, you don't need a calculator to prove a theorem and well thought-out exercises deal with "nice" numbers.

I understand, that labs in engineering would be a different story though, because a machine with R, Python, Matlab/Octave or anything else isn't always at hand.

[XMIT]

A calculator is completely useless in computer science.

Try the HP 16c and let me know what you think.

[Hypersphere]

@Ace: I agree with XMIT. At the university level, students and faculty tend to use full-fledged computers for advanced calculations and seldom use dedicated calculators. When I reach for a dedicated calculator, my preference is the HP-15c. I also have an HP-11c that has been going strong for many, many years without a battery change. I even have an HP-15c emulator installed on my computers. When I need to do more advanced math, including data exploration, plots, curve fitting, and statistics, I use a variety of programs, including JMP Pro, GraphPad Prism, Origin Pro, Matlab, and R.

However, I recognize that each person has his own preferences regarding tools, and if you want to keep using something akin to your former TI favorite, you can get advice from others along with doing research to find the features and quality you are seeking.

[davkol]

A calculator is completely useless in computer science.

Try the HP 16c and let me know what you think.

It's a collectible these days, nothing more. Sure, it was useful, when _programming_ very limited systems using low-level tools. First, few people do that nowadays (because it's inefficient and error-prone); second, it's arguably engineering.

[XMIT]

When I reach for a dedicated calculator, my preference is the HP-15c.

There was a re-make of the HP 15c back in 2012. I can't believe I missed it!

For years I was a low level C programmer and could have used an HP 16c. But as I alluded to earlier I used gdb for bit fiddling (and Python could have worked but I usually had a gdb shell open already). Why? Copy-pasting pointers from the debugger or somewhere else made it that much less likely to introduce an error.

I borrowed a friend's HP 48G for a while and it was ... super ... slow. The HP 50g is not quite as well built as the 48 (nothing is) but the keyboard is really satisfying and it is really fast. The TI 89 has a much nicer screen. Comparing the keyboards, the HP 50g is crisp and clicky using steel domes, and the TI 89 has mushy rubber domes. Definitely set KEYTIME to 500 on the HP to get a more responsive keyboard.


HP 49G+ keyboard (50g is identical)


TI 89 Ti keyboard with rubber membrane keys (TI 89 used plastic keys and rubber domes)

It could be fun to put together a WP 34s. It involves an HP 30b, a new firmware, and a key overlay. This ends up being nicer than the HP 35.
http://commerce.hpcalc.org/34s.php

There was a Swiss company that issued remakes of the classic HP calculators. https://www.swissmicros.com

These days, if I need to do any math, it's often arithmetic and I just do Command+Space (on a Mac) or Alt+Space (on a Windows machine with Launchy installed) to do quick calculation. That or a Python shell. Wolfram Alpha is neat for anything more serious.

[adhoc]

Oh the irony...

Heh, you're right.

[vometia]

Apologies for the slight topic necromancy, but this is on my mind at the moment: I need a calculator. I'm not entirely sure what brought about the critical mass after very many years of being sans calculator, but I'm so fed up with using bc in an xterm or trying to work stuff out in my head.

I'm sure a smartphone could do an adequate calculator emulation, but 1) I don't own a smartphone, 2) being here I obviously prefer nicely made tactile things and 3) I'm old and I like using the right tool for the job: my phone is just a phone, I use a camera for taking photos, I use a music player for playing music and I'd like to use an actual calculator for calculating.

My inclination is Texas Instruments. Probably because my first calculator was a TI-30 back in about 1979/80, a huge battery-eating brick I'd lug into school every day. I eventually replaced it with a more slimline LCD model once one of its buttons went wonky, and that in turn was replaced by the previously mentioned Casio fx-451 mostly on the basis that it didn't need batteries: the fx-451 was undoubtedly the more capable calculator but I never warmed to it. I still have it somewhere, and I dare say it still works, I just don't like it.

Since I mentioned "school" and "1979/80", obviously I don't need a calculator that's compliant with the various examining boards and what-not. Though I'd still like to learn calculus (the combination of my autism and a newbie teacher meant an understanding never quite crystallised, though it's there somewhere) it's not desperately important. Since I am a computer programmer and sysadmin, something that does reasonably trouble-free hex conversion would be nice. Other than that, a reasonably nicely made scientific calculator. Like a TI-30, I guess.

The basic TI-30 is looking a bit iffy as I understand lots of them are full of bugs and most don't do base conversion. The TI-36 does both but I've heard the build quality is indifferent and the shiny operator keys have attracted some criticism of the sort that means I suspect I'd be frequently annoyed by them.

The other thing I've been looking at is the TI-84 Plus CE because "ooh colour", which I admit is probably the main reason: I'm easily sold on the shiny. But I've seen (indeed in this topic) that the build quality may also not be awesome and it doesn't do base conversion without adding a program, and I'm not sure how convenient that would be to use. And I've also been unable to determine how good it is as just a general everyday calculator when I'm trying to add up my shopping.

I'm pretty sure I don't want an Nspire: that seems to be entirely aimed at the education market, and while I might eventually do some mathematical thing, let's face it, I'm 48 so I probably won't. I don't like the look of it, its button layout looks horrid and not unlike those awful mid '80s digital watches with the bizarrely tiny keypads and I've heard that for all it's much better specified, its performance tends to be lacklustre: admittedly for stuff that's likely more advanced than what I want, but I don't want to take the risk.

So basically I want a scientific calculator that's also good for general everyday use, I like Texas Instruments' way of doing things, build quality and tactility are important, education and advanced maths are not important, and "ooh shiny" has more influence on me than is decent. Thoughts?

[codemonkeymike]

Never had an issue with the TI-30X IIS, Used it for up to calculus 3 and analytical chemistry. I have a TI-83 and almost never used it, too big and too much crap on it. I could bang out a PV=nRT conversion in seconds with the TI-30. Some people on Amazon are saying that the TI-30XS is better but I never used one, if I was still in school I would have probably picked up an TI-30XS. Edit: I was combing through amazon and spotted a TI-36X Pro, which some of my classmates in Calculus 2 were using to cheat on tests (as it does integrals for you). That may be another option if you usually do integrals or derivatives.

[vometia]

I'm really wavering between a 30/36 and an 84. I'm very unlikely to do anything more than pretty basic mathematical stuff, so as long as it does simple trig, logarithms etc that's fairly certain to be enough for me; hex conversions would be really nice though, I object on moral grounds to having to use the nastiness that is perl to do it for me.

It's still looking like the build quality and key feel will be the clincher. As much as the eight-year-old in me keeps saying "but colour!"

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Perl is nice :(

[jacobolus]

Get a slide rule. It’s much faster to operate than a handheld calculater, way more fun, and anything you need more precision or flexibility for should be done on a laptop anyway.

Handheld graphing calculators (especially Texas Instruments) are a racket, selling anachronistic hardware from the late 1980s at the same price for 20+ years, mostly to worried and ignorant parents of high school students, because the company is in bed with American high school standardized test publishers, textbook authors, and the politicians with power to choose tests and textbooks.

A modern smartphone is an orders of magnitude more capable device, if you install the appropriate software. But I would generally recommend just using a laptop, where you have access to a real keyboard, email, the web, version control systems, text editors with syntax highlighting, etc.

If you really insist on a handheld calculator, a used “scientific” model can be had for about $5. I got through high school and college math/physics/computer science/etc. courses with a pen and (I believe) a Casio fx-82SX but really any model will work just fine.

Having a handheld graphing calculator will not help anyone learn calculus.

[vometia]

Perl is nice

Bah. I appreciate its intent, but I could never bring myself to love it. That said, I said much the same about C... 30 years ago, and I've used little else since.

Re slide rules, the old fartle in me is almost tempted: almost, but not quite. I remember finding one of my late father's slide rules in my teens, but sadly I no longer have it (I suspect it's around somewhere, but not within my reach). But being of the late persuasion, he wasn't around to tell me how to use it.

Your explanation for why the TI stuff is so pricey makes a lot of sense and I guess I shouldn't be so quick to part with a lot of money if there isn't a good reason. I prefer their layout and way of doing things, but that's a hell of a premium to pay. I mean over £120 for something that uses basically the same processor as a TRS-80... though now that I mention it, that was also inordinately overpriced.

The logical part of me thinks I should find my fx-451 and just deal with it, but the problem is I fundamentally dislike it. And I don't want to use my desktop, and view smartphones as witchcraft and no good will come of it etc. I'm just difficult to please, I suppose.

[jacobolus]

Learning how to use a slide rule and spending some time thinking about the meaning of what you’re doing will be better training for your number sense than just about anything you can do on a graphing calculator.

[codemonkeymike]

Just ditch the idea of an 83/84 then you only have 2 things to choose between. The only reason 99% people have 83/84's is because their university class required it or because its _cool_. But in all reality the 30/36 does everything you need, just buy the newest one (TI-30XS), and return it if you don't like it.

[vometia]

Learning how to use a slide rule and spending some time thinking about the meaning of what you’re doing will be better training for your number sense than just about anything you can do on a graphing calculator.

Good point, and one often made in photography: use film in something manual instead of just pointing and clicking and hoping for the best whilst taking eleventy billion rubbishy pictures. I must admit to recognising the former as an ideal whilst tending towards the latter because I'm lazy.

Just ditch the idea of an 83/84 then you only have 2 things to choose between. The only reason 99% people have 83/84's is because their university class required it or because its _cool_. But in all reality the 30/36 does everything you need, just buy the newest one (TI-30XS), and return it if you don't like it.

I think that's probably the reason the 84 looks tempting, because so many people say it's awesome as they used it at college. And I admit that's the reason I like TIs myself, though back in the day I was never tempted by graphing calculators even if I could've afforded one, so perhaps I should be asking myself why I'm even considering one now (yes, I admit it's because "ooh colour": same reason I got that colour Palm Pilot I never used).

Ideally I'd go and find ye olde electronices shoppe where I could play with them, but I'm agoraphobic. It is looking like this brief discussion might end up saving me quite a lot of money, though: my intuition said TI-36 at the outset, I should probably just go with that, shiny keys and all.

[fohat]

I went through school using a slide rule (calculators became commonly available about halfway through my time in college but cost $350 and couldn't even do square roots, so I did not buy one until later).

I bought my first TI-30 somewhere in the early-mid-1980s and have used them ever since. When I run across one at a salvage store or a yard sale for $1-$2 I usually buy it for a backup. For a brief time, in the 1990s I think, there was a thin-profile variant with rubbery buttons that I really liked, but they are hard to find now.