I'm tired of the damn speculation that ruins everything

[prava]

Hi, fellows.

As the title implies, I'm kinda sick of watching people make no effort for the community and then taking some nice profits. One of the most common movements happen with Click Clack keys: the producer sells them for a price he believes its fair and then people just go and buy all of them from him with the only expectation that they will be able to sell them later on for a profit. That sort of nonsense bullshit attitude hurt EVERYBODY in the community, as somebody that has done nothing nor created any value shouldn't be allowed to take any profit whatsoever (and forums like this should prevent such things from happening).

Another example would be the Red Alert set. So, sixty sold the last ones randomly...and yet one user says that bla bla bla he doesn't need it and he may AUCTION it. WTF?!?!? So, sixty is breaking his ass to gives us nice goodies (group buys give price benefits to all the interested parties), and even randomly sets who gets the last sets instead of auctioning them himself yet..the buyer feels he can just auction such set and make a good amount of cash?

I call all those attitudes as un-friendly, and very hurtful for any given community. People profiting from stuff they have put no effort into is bad for everyone, as prices go artificially up for the sake of it because this is such a small community. So, if anybody should be making profits are the people that organise those group-buys themselves, and not those damn speculative rats that keep trying to sink the boat every damn time.

Jeeeez, so sick of it. And yes, I do understand that participating in a group-buy has some sort of risk into it...but don't tell me that buying tsangan novelty keycaps at $0.4 each and selling them at $4 has any sort of risk compensation into it. No, tsangan should be the one taking up the profits as he was the one that did all the damn job.

So, as I know there is no way to end this, people should just not buy from people to speculate. Speculation hurts everybody, as they are middle man that do nothing for the community but take benefits from somebody else.

Cheers!

[mintberryminuscrunch]

on the same page regarding cc
but on group buys not.
people ordering 100-200 keys guarantee a low price, and everyone else profits. It's just less obvious

[prava]

on the same page regarding cc
but on group buys not.
people ordering 100-200 keys guarantee a low price, and everyone else profits. It's just less obvious

Sure, the organiser of a group buy himself profits from having a much lower price than should he get the keys he needed (plus something extra for the job itself), and so do everybody else.

But that doesn't mean that people should be entitled to put those same keys on the market for 10x the original price. Double the price so to cover the risk you took when accepting the group buys? Doesn't sound crazy to me, but 10x is being greedy. If I had time and money I'd love to get into group buys getting hundreds of keys and selling them for group-buy price + 20%, so I could screw up all those rats making profits they shouldn't be making.

PS: regarding the CC, I want one. But If I have to pay $50 or even $100 for it, the creator will be the one receiving the money or else I won't ever get one. He is the one who produced them, and nobody else should profit nor speculate on those keys.

[off]

[+1]
Though on GB ordering; order all the caps you like, the part that hurts is reselling at 300+% profit.
(though 300% on a single 0.20c keycap seems sort of alright)
And that guy that might sell his lottery won red alert- he hasn't really spoken out as such afaik; if he does auction it for his own profit, feel free to burn, I probably will, until then; please grant him the benefit of the doubt, I will.

[mintberryminuscrunch]

group buys are open and everyone has the chance to join in.
and no one is forced to pay higher prices.
it's just the market.. give it some time and it will work out by itself.

by the way. there is something like a reputation, and ppl going too much for profits will lose theirs and customers, too

[off]

it's just the market.. give it some time and it will work out by itself.

[-1]
Have about zero faith in 'the market will fix itself', proven time and time again it can and will be gamed, at the loss of 90% of the enthusiasts, and for profit of those few that game.

by the way. there is something like a reputation, and ppl going too much for profits will lose theirs and customers, too

That is absolutely there; but only really weighs in when the item in question can still be obtained otherwise- monopolists have no need for a decent reputation; customers will come running in.

[mintberryminuscrunch]

and btw. what pisses me of are ppl bitching at gb4 prices and dropping out.
the moment the first pics are released they will be bidding against each other to get the few leftover sets.
would they just order in the first place the prices would go down and it wouldn't be such a hassle for 7bit

[fossala]

Hi, fellows.

As the title implies, I'm kinda sick of watching people make no effort for the community and then taking some nice profits. One of the most common movements happen with Click Clack keys: the producer sells them for a price he believes its fair and then people just go and buy all of them from him with the only expectation that they will be able to sell them later on for a profit. That sort of nonsense bullshit attitude hurt EVERYBODY in the community, as somebody that has done nothing nor created any value shouldn't be allowed to take any profit whatsoever (and forums like this should prevent such things from happening).

Another example would be the Red Alert set. So, sixty sold the last ones randomly...and yet one user says that bla bla bla he doesn't need it and he may AUCTION it. WTF?!?!? So, sixty is breaking his ass to gives us nice goodies (group buys give price benefits to all the interested parties), and even randomly sets who gets the last sets instead of auctioning them himself yet..the buyer feels he can just auction such set and make a good amount of cash?

I call all those attitudes as un-friendly, and very hurtful for any given community. People profiting from stuff they have put no effort into is bad for everyone, as prices go artificially up for the sake of it because this is such a small community. So, if anybody should be making profits are the people that organise those group-buys themselves, and not those damn speculative rats that keep trying to sink the boat every damn time.

Jeeeez, so sick of it. And yes, I do understand that participating in a group-buy has some sort of risk into it...but don't tell me that buying tsangan novelty keycaps at $0.4 each and selling them at $4 has any sort of risk compensation into it. No, tsangan should be the one taking up the profits as he was the one that did all the damn job.

So, as I know there is no way to end this, people should just not buy from people to speculate. Speculation hurts everybody, as they are middle man that do nothing for the community but take benefits from somebody else.

Cheers!

I have been moaning about this at GH for 3 months, all I get is being called a troll.

[guilleguillaume]

[...]

I have been moaning about this at GH for 3 months, all I get is being called a troll.

Me too!

I agree with the OP.

[dirge]

I have been moaning about this at GH for 3 months, all I get is being called a troll.

Personally I agreed with you, but don't post as it just feeds the argument. You're not going to change people, if they are greedy they'll always be that way. just don't deal with em.

[fossala]

I'm seriously thinking about hanging up my mod status and leaving GH.

[7bit]

I agree with you, except that I will not have any problem with people buying as many key caps as they can from Round 4, just to sell these to the highest bidder!

[Charlie_Brown_MX]

it's just the market.. give it some time and it will work out by itself.

[-1]
Have about zero faith in 'the market will fix itself', proven time and time again it can and will be gamed, at the loss of 90% of the enthusiasts, and for profit of those few that game.

The world economy over the last half decade has been proof of that. The market didn’t fix itself there — it ran out of control until it basically exploded. Relying on level-headedness in any market is like relying on a house of cards not to ever come down. It *might* stay up, but it’s much more likely to come tumbling down.

[kbdfr]

[...] Another example would be the Red Alert set. So, sixty sold the last ones randomly...and yet one user says that bla bla bla he doesn't need it and he may AUCTION it. WTF?!?!? So, sixty is breaking his ass to gives us nice goodies (group buys give price benefits to all the interested parties), and even randomly sets who gets the last sets instead of auctioning them himself yet..the buyer feels he can just auction such set and make a good amount of cash? [...]

I'm glad not to be the only one who did resent that.
http://deskthority.net/post42861.html?#p42861

[CeeSA]

1 sidestep could be: ban auctions
(this is at gh market a rule now)

i think it is one good thing to prevent the endless overbidding. for me it's hard because i didn't like regulation.
don't leave it to the market, otherwise some people will sell there kidney.

[prava]

For those who claim that the market will fix itself...I'm a business manager student myself, and I can tell you that its not the case. Why?

a) Middle man do nothing good for markets. But first, what are those middle man? Middle man are people that do business basing their profits only on speculation. They have no interest in the market whatsoever, and they are there with the sole reason to buy in order to sell for a profit. They add no value to the chain whatsoever, and only hurt all the other parties that are involved. People that buy CC keys and sell them within days with a HUGE markup are in this group. You see, if somebody should be profiting for such special keycaps it should be the guy who made them, and whoever invested in such business. Of course, people dealing with handling should get some sort of a cut...but the markups we see in such keys is MIND BLOWING, and hurtful for the community.
Right now, the people that truly want a CC have 2 options: the first one being you have no keycap, and the second one is you have to pay a ton of money because of those damn speculators.

b) A market will never function properly when some of the parties dominate it. The keyboard community is very small, and it pisses me off to see that people like sixty, tsangan and plenty others do all the work so that others can make profits on their own...without EVER investing a minute in making the community a better place. Such attitude should be a banable offense, because if tsangan makes a profit for each keycap he sells then its a profit very well deserved: we get some goods, along a good service, and all wrapped up with very good prices. Middle-men only profit from hardworking people and then stack their insane rates for doing nothing.

Also, and this is what makes me lol whenever I enter some forums, there is a universal rule for all sorts of classifieds sections throughout the internet forums:

member-to-member buy/sell/trade. (no commercial sales)

(per GH classifieds zone)

Now, what makes a commercial sale a commercial one? The fact that you trade FOR PROFIT. So, why the hell such practices as speculation are allowed in such forums? If somebody can buy keys at $0.4 and sell them at $4 its clear as it could be that such person has commercial interest in those sells and, thus, should be considered a shop to all regards. You see, we don't see keyboardco selling their keyboards here, or there (at least not the new ones...I believe EK did, but because they had leftovers), but we see people having the same interest as those shops have...but without any commercial entity behind them; so, whats the difference? Why the average Joe is allowed to sell for profit and the shops (who pay taxes, by the way) aren't?

I believe this issue should be studied carefully, as its a lot different to go to a warehouse, find 20 old keyboards and do some testing and cleaning so that you can sell them (you see, those keyboards would have never made it here if you didn't do such an effort), rather than being the middle man that is 24/7 pushing the F5 and screwing everybody else so that you can make a few pennies off of everybody else.

So, IMO, commercial sales should be anything in which somebody acted as a middle-man, and if middle-men are accepted...shops should also be accepted as there is not a single difference between those practices (there is: shops actually pay taxes).

[webwit]

There is currently no rule against shop postings, it's just that there aren't any, with one or two exceptions.

[Ascaii]

Im glad I am not the only one with these thoughts here...I am always hesitant to post what I am really thinking, lest I be misunderstood...guess I took the cowards way instead of speaking up.

I agree wholeheartedly and hope we can fix the situation somehow...I have seen people using the goodwill of others for their owns profits often enough and I am beyond sick of it. Perhaps we need to have a dedicated marketplace moderator / team of mods to try and bring some form of order to the game.

Either way or not...I've already got enough people on my blacklist that I won't sell to for this exact reason...and the way it looks that list is growing steadily.

[gimpster]

Yah, I was pretty enraged about the Rebel Red Alert key. I wanted to get in on that group buy for months, but missed the original deadline and then waited months and months more for the extra sets to go on sale, only to find out that they would be raffled off, instead. So I threw my hat in, like everybody else, and was sad when I didn't win. Then I see one of the winners basically put the keys on his keyboard, take a few pics, and announce that he didn't like it and would probably sell it off. I had my little FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU moment and couldn't wrap my head around why he would bother entering a raffle for something he didn't want when there were people like me who would actually put the keys to use on a project like the Phantom to keep and use for a long time. I agree that auctions don't really have a place here on these forums. If they want to do that, go to eBay. And I think a mod or two to delete those threads when they pop up would be a great idea, if we've got the resources to do it.

The ClickClack keys are so far beyond ridiculous that I have given up hope that I'll ever be able to find one that a) would look good on one of my keyboards and b) could be purchased for a reasonable price. I remember the last time that EK got some stock in, I got the email about them and immediately clicked the link but every single one they had were already sold. I couldn't believe how ravenous people were over them, and I didn't even think they looked that good (these were the white ones with red/blue eyes), but people were clearly just buying them up so they could be used as a bargaining chip later with an artificially high value placed on them. I say eff it. I've been in things like that before, I know better. No piece of plastic is worth $50-100 to me.

[woody]

Then I see one of the winners basically put the keys on his keyboard, take a few pics, and announce that he didn't like it and would probably sell it off.

What if he/she simply didn't like them for one reason or another? Not that unlikely, I guess. After all, he/she is free to do with them whatever he/she likes.

I agree that auctions don't really have a place here on these forums. If they want to do that, go to eBay. And I think a mod or two to delete those threads when they pop up would be a great idea, if we've got the resources to do it.

Auctions are about as wrong as timezones / geographic location, availability of free time and connection to read a certain thread, and so on, and so on.

The ClickClack keys are so far beyond ridiculous

Most of the rare/limited stuff is like this. My advice - live with (or without) it.

Comrades, starting to regulate something by defining what's good and what's bad has failed miserably in recent history.

EDIT: On the other hand, if you need venting - do go on. It's Off-topic anyway.

[webwit]

I believe in freedom and labeling, not in too much restrictive rules and moderation. Then people can make their own mature and intelligent decisions. For example, I relabeled this one from Group Buy to PR (the "commercial" tag):
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... t2508.html
Now some will want to buy, and others won't like the overpriced and commercial nature and not buy, each group making their own decisions. If one group wants to enforce rules about what everybody is allowed to see, with moderators removing posts, it's a dangerous road. It's also like saying: we are weak and cannot make our own intelligent decisions. Well, this is not overclock, so I don't agree. Also, where does it stop? Me, I think paypal is the spawn of evil. One could argue that this commercial entity is making money off the community. Should it be banned because I don't like it, or should we allow everybody to make their own choice? I don't think we should take this road. This is my personal opinion though, other admin may feel differently.

[7bit]

...

Thanks! Great to see I'm not the only one who has got no problem with others making profit with the stuff they got for cheap.

If somene sells his Tipro numpad for 29 or even 39 EUR, I'll not complain even though I originaly forwarded them for 1.5 EUR plus shipping.

[gimpster]

What if he/she simply didn't like them for one reason or another? Not that unlikely, I guess. After all, he/she is free to do with them whatever he/she likes.

Pictures were up in that thread for weeks/months before the raffle was held. It's easy to determine whether you like the look of a set from the pics, you don't need to buy the set to find out.

Auctions are about as wrong as timezones / geographic location, availability of free time and connection to read a certain thread, and so on, and so on.

Disagreed. All of those are either self-imposed restrictions or limitations of reality that we can't do anything about. Sure, the owner can do whatever they want with the keys, that doesn't mean we have to allow them to do it here.

Most of the rare/limited stuff is like this. My advice - live with (or without) it.

Yup, they are. That's why I've chosen to live without it, unless I happen across a reasonable offer.

Comrades, starting to regulate something by defining what's good and what's bad has failed miserably in recent history.

I don't see how anyone can stand by a blanket statement like that. Certain regulations are a very good thing and improve the overall health of any ecosystem. I personally think that this would help improve this community. It helps remove animosity amongst its members, and allows more people to have what they want. I understand you don't agree with that viewpoint, and that's fine. For me, this conversation is somewhat personal because I was involved in a situation where someone artificially limited my ability to get something that I had wanted for a very long time, just so they could make a buck on a popular item. They didn't do it to improve the community, they did it to improve their own cash flow. It was greedy and greedy members are poison to a small community like this.

[kbdfr]

Then I see one of the winners basically put the keys on his keyboard, take a few pics, and announce that he didn't like it and would probably sell it off.

What if he/she simply didn't like them for one reason or another? Not that unlikely, I guess. After all, he/she is free to do with them whatever he/she likes.[...]

Sure. And still many of us find it disgusting he did not just give them back so that someone else has the chance to get them the very same way he did, but wants to make profit out of them instead.

[kbdfr]

[...] If somene sells his Tipro numpad for 29 or even 39 EUR, I'll not complain even though I originaly forwarded them for 1.5 EUR plus shipping.

Shipping? You actually even brought mine to my place

[t!ng]

Guys, where did I write that i dont like the RA keys? Or anything about it? They are awesome! I just want to go with topre. So I am planning to sell off most of my MX stuff. In the end I fell in love with MX Browns and Topre switches, so I am only looking for a Noppoo choc mini. In the past 400 days I have learnt alot about keyboards, it is a world of its own. But I learnt that this adventure is endless, as long as you dont have a target or way to go (my way to go is topre in this case), it stays endless. And my wallet is not endless since I am just a student. I have tried many switches and keyboards. I hope to try ergo clears once... regretting I havent yet.

The thing is, there will be no auction about this set. I have almost traded them for colored topre key caps, which seems legitim in my opinion - I even added cash. If I had made an auction out of it I think I would have made $$$² and had a guilty conscience. I received many offers, but I decided not to go with the most profitable one, but with the most desirable one.

I would vote for "ban auctions" too, when looking at the current world money system. It is breaking together (but almost nobody realizes that) and the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. All the profits goes to 1% of mankind. The wild speculations on the world stock market are destroying everything - the compound interest making it even worse. With the system of auctions the rich always win. The little man, probably having more passion and desire for the item, is standing without a chance.

But the most important thing I have learnt is: community > money.
A little offtopic, but I guess justified in this thread.
Peace out.

[gimpster]

...

I'm glad things turned out that way t!ng. You've earned back your honor in my eyes.

[prava]

I believe in freedom and labeling, not in too much restrictive rules and moderation. Then people can make their own mature and intelligent decisions. For example, I relabeled this one from Group Buy to PR (the "commercial" tag):
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... t2508.html
Now some will want to buy, and others won't like the overpriced and commercial nature and not buy, each group making their own decisions. If one group wants to enforce rules about what everybody is allowed to see, with moderators removing posts, it's a dangerous road. It's also like saying: we are weak and cannot make our own intelligent decisions. Well, this is not overclock, so I don't agree. Also, where does it stop? Me, I think paypal is the spawn of evil. One could argue that this commercial entity is making money off the community. Should it be banned because I don't like it, or should we allow everybody to make their own choice? I don't think we should take this road. This is my personal opinion though, other admin may feel differently.

I believe I didn't properly write what I was thinking. People introducing goods to this forum is good for everyone, as they offer a service in exchange for some money (such as the link you are showing). What hurts the community are does users who buy stuff in the forum only to resell it later on, as this users have no interest in the community nor in the goods that are being offered, but by the chance they have to buy at good prices and resell making a ton of profit. Thats hurtful for the community, and shouldn't be allowed, IMO.

Paypal sits on a totally different shelve. Why? They offer a service that nobody else offers...and as much as I hate it as the corporate greedy bastards they are (specially now that so many users, and specially sixty who organised the group-buy and has his own account and money locked), there aren't many other companies that offer the services they do offer at the price they offer them.

So, like I said, people buying from a place and selling at the same (or a very similar one) are the issue here. If they were removed from the community the same goods would be exchanged but the profit would be done by the ones creating the value (as it should be).


@kbdfr: I'd have no problem with that Red Alert set if it was auctioned like this:
a) Actuion starts at the price that was paid for it (+ shipping, so the user recovers his investment)
b) Any penny on top of that price will go to Deskthority as a donation.

At least that way the users himself makes no profit and doesn't screw the community that much, IMO.


@t!ng: my respect to you, mate. You chose the best option.

[kbdfr]

@kbdfr: I'd have no problem with that Red Alert set if it was auctioned like this:
a) Actuion starts at the price that was paid for it (+ shipping, so the user recovers his investment)
b) Any penny on top of that price will go to Deskthority as a donation.

At least that way the users himself makes no profit and doesn't screw the community that much, IMO.

That's exactly what I started almost two weeks ago, buying a job lot of keycaps to resell them individually for the benefit of deskthority:
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... 0of#p43441

[Icarium]

1. Practical point: I don't think banning auctions is possible. Even lowering the price daily and bumping is an auction in a way.

2. I would like people with insight into price and availability to speak up, though.
It often happens with good prices in the form of "great price, glws" but less with steep prices.
Like rodtang and Ascaii did here: http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... t1952.html

3. It would also be nice if the marketplace would be a bit more structured to accommodate searches for similar products to at least compare with older sales but this I already mentioned http://deskthority.net/deskthority-rela ... t2546.html even though it should have been here: http://deskthority.net/deskthority-rela ... t2396.html

4. This reminds me that I hate bumps. I don't see why the thread is marked unread for me again. I probably haven't developed any new interest in the item and no new information has been added to the thread. If it's just supposed to keep the item on the top of the list than it will only affect people who are new or seldom look at the marketplace. I also doubt that it helps much and it obviously helps less if more people do it.
Long story short, bumping should not mark a read thread as unread.