Political views on the economy.

[fossala]

I'm no genius with economics, but I can't see how capitalism is good for society. It takes everything away from the working man and give it to the rich. Rich people are getting more rich and there as still starving people in "developed countries".
Our governments are being less and less socialist over the last 30 years. Where having are basics taken away from us (health care, welfare). This can't end well!

How can the common man be happy with this situation?

I'm happy to discus polatics but please don't just come here to "attack" me.

[dirge]

Ultimately the issue is down to human nature. We put people in charge of looking after our best interests. If they did it would all be fine, unfortunately that just never seems to be the case.

Download Adam Curtis's documentaries, they are great, I'd never be able sum them up in a forum post.

If you haven't seen them, just please watch em. Actually gonna put one on now.

[TexasFlood]

The rich getting richer is nothing new nor are starving people unfortunately. Folks tend to notice things like this more when getting hit in the pocketbook. It's human nature, if your wallet and belly are full then you probably don't care who is getting rich and it's a lot easier to turn a blind eye to folks worse off. Socialism has it's share of flaws, such as the lack of free market economy resulting in arbitrary pricing, stagnant technological advances, reduced incentives to work, reduced prosperity from lack of production, typically less freedom, etc. Politics is a third rail sort of like religion so I didn't really mean to get into a debate on it. Where's that Ripster supply & demand chart, would have thought he'd have swooped in with it by now,

[fossala]

Ultimately the issue is down to human nature.

We have managed to suppress a lot of "human nature" couldn't suppressing that make us stronger as a society? (ultimately what we want).

[fossala]

Socialism has it's share of flaws, such as the lack of free market economy resulting in arbitrary pricing, stagnant technological advances, reduced incentives to work, reduced prosperity from lack of production, typically less freedom, etc.

All these are not relevant if we weren't selfish. I could have the same amount of money on the benefits than I do working, I choose to work. If more people where not just in it for themselves and we tried to change society, thing could work.

[TexasFlood]

Talk of suppressing human nature is a slippery slope for sure. Encouraging the better angels and limiting those aspects which harm others is what societal rules & government is all about. But again, no system is perfect and anything can be corrupted. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.

[dirge]

Put the first episode of "the trap" on, already been two old keyboards on it.

[TexasFlood]

There's nothing wrong with self interest. If you don't take care of yourself you can't help anyone else. While in theory I agree that one shouldn't be selfish, it's a hard thing to define. Again, there should be rules to control abuse. But IMHO the term selfish is used more by someone not getting their way to describe those perceived to be thwarting them than to describe measurable behavior.

[itlnstln]

I think there's a middle ground. You need certain aspects of capitalism to drive competition and stoke personal drive to do well and be productive (too much socialism can drive laziness). On the other hand, you need a certain amount of regulation and socialism to keep individuals' greed and irrationality in check as well as keep the overall living conditions to a certain level to prevent poverty, crime, etc.

It's how you balance them that is key.

[dirge]

John Nash "fuck you buddy" game theory.

Everyone's self interest balances out.

Google the prisoners dilemma

[fossala]

I think there's a middle ground. You need certain aspects of capitalism to drive competition and stoke personal drive to do well and be productive (too much socialism can drive laziness). On the other hand, you need a certain amount of regulation and socialism to keep individuals' greed and irrationality in check as well as keep the overall living conditions to a certain level to prevent poverty, crime, etc.

It's how you balance them that is key.

That does make sense but it seems that the balance is way out, we fuck over many other countries and let people exploit indervituals to the point of starvation.

[WRXChris]

Capitalism can't exist without slavery. America got off to a great start because we had slaves from Africa to do our labor. They kept the slaves around until machinery was invented that could replace the slaves (tractors, harvesters, etc.). America steadily improved the quality of life for everyone, until the fat cats that run the big companies realized that they had the technology / global political stability to start moving their operations overseas where the standard of living was much lower than America, and hence they could pay employees less and keep more money for themselves. This is the trend we are still experiencing today; people in developed countries have come to expect shitloads of products at dirt cheap prices, effectively keeping themselves unemployed and people in third-world countries enslaved. One of the only ways to fight this is to buy less stuff; don't buy shitty 'Best Buy' speakers and replace them every few years, buy a nice set from a small company in the UK and they'll last 40 years.

The fact that corporate America controls our political system doesn't help a thing. The Republican and Democratic parties both rely on multi-million dollar donations from large organizations to run their political campaigns. The average person no longer has ANY say in the matter. The average American has been brainwashed into believing that it's a waste to vote for someone other than the D or R candidate, effectively keeping the fat cats in total control of our fate. There have been hints at revolution with the Occupy movement and the huge amount of support people like Ron Paul are getting. The problem is there are still too many spineless brainwashed sheep that just follow the herd, and they tend to be the people who are making just enough money to not ask questions. The fact that all major media is controlled by a few people doesn't help a thing. This is how modern American capitalism has turned into the biggest ponzi scheme ever created, people just need to wake the fuck up and stop supporting the big companies that keep it this way. Think about that next time you reach for a Coca-Cola or a Snapple.

[WRXChris]

I think there's a middle ground. You need certain aspects of capitalism to drive competition and stoke personal drive to do well and be productive (too much socialism can drive laziness). On the other hand, you need a certain amount of regulation and socialism to keep individuals' greed and irrationality in check as well as keep the overall living conditions to a certain level to prevent poverty, crime, etc.

It's how you balance them that is key.

QFT!

[t!ng]

..., but I can't see how capitalism is good for society.

Right!

Very interesting Thread, I will follow it.

Btw. governments don't rule the world, it is the big concerns on this planet and the few men that they belong to. Governments were made for the people to think there are people who take care of them. The opposite is the case. The US is already a fascistic police sate. All people in the governments are actors and/or marionettes, at least the ones of the western world.

I would like to know who realizes that the EU is going down soon. The Euro € was a good idea... for the profiteers at least. All countries in the EU are crashing because of the € and the banksters that gamble daily. Now comes the "Fiskalpakt" and the ESM. That means that all depts of the EU are split, so that the countries with money (like Germany) gonna pay for the "poor". This won't work as all money goes into the pockets of the banksters. The community doesnt see a penny of it.

More than half of the EU countries are crashing right now. Greece was the beginning. Did you know that the suicide rate went high becuase of the situation? People with good jobs were forced to beg for bread on the streets for their families. This leads me to the next issue. The media. We only are shown things that we are allowed to see. 'Nuf said.

The US and A... hot country these days... but a "hot" country for decades political wise. Obama is the worst president ever. The US never ever has had such high depts (16 trillion $ I think). Furthermore he fights a war against civilization. Humanity always needs an enemy picture. Decades ago it were the jews... now it is the Islam... Because of what? 9/11? Yes... because of another inside job (Pearl Harbour was brillant, too). Damn people wake up!

Last month I saw a youtube video showing Irak veterans throwing their medals away, because they are not proud of killing innocent in an absurd war, a war for resources, a war of dick comparisons and "show who's the boss".

Sorry guys from the US, but your government is the pure evil...

(Sorry for the long text, these are 1% of my thoughts that have to go out into the world)

... and now lets wait for the fbi/cia to rock my door...

[dirge]

t!ng good post. Euro is a bad mistake beyond saving. You can't give up control of you currency. You've no control over growth. Great for France and Germany, not so good for Ireland ...

You may have made some Americans angry mind... ;p

[t!ng]

I have to add that Germay, Russia, Japan,... aren't better. History shows that.
Germany is still sending weopons into the middle East. The arms trade is very cost-effective...

Looks like CoD:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=652_1341423015

"Bye bye mister american pie..."

Damn these pixels looked dangerous!

Source:
http://alles-schallundrauch.blogspot.de/
(recommend this site for the German fellows)

[t!ng]

I am not making friends here, I know that. But what is wrong about sharing my thoughts (and maybe the truth)?

Veterans throwing medals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBCABql41vY

I think it is very important to talk about the world happenings, even in a mechanical forum where people from all over the world meet.

[dirge]

UK will be sending armor plated "farming machinery " too. Dangerous that farming lark.

[longweight]

Adam Curtis is a genius.

[t!ng]

Ooh, havent heard of him yet. His blog seems very interesting. Thanks for that!

[dirge]

Ooh, havent heard of him yet. His blog seems very interesting. Thanks for that!

He's a documentary maker, mostly.for the BBC. Check his wiki page, and download his 3 part series "the trap - what happened to our dreams of freedom "

Can't recommended it enough. Loads of stock footage of old keyboards too! Lost count!

[t!ng]

If it weren't so damn late and there wouldn't be this important exam on wednesday I would suck in these 3 right now.. lol

[WRXChris]

The corporate corruption has reached the point where US presidents appoint "czars" from the biggest companies in their industry to regulate their competition... for instance this guy from one of the worst companies of all, Monsanto...

http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/fir ... ndex2.html

[Brian8bit]

Bankers who make the kind of fuck ups we've seen in the last 5 years should be sentenced to death. Lobbyists should also be sentenced to death. Any government official found to be receiving any kind of gift from corporate interests or lobbyists should be sentenced to death.

We need less democracy. Because people are inherently stupid and make stupid choices.

[webwit]

We're in a cyclic end game which has been documented well since the Roman Empire, but not far enough that we're willing to pay the price to end it, which is anarchy. It's still preferred to stick to stable (more or less) jobs. What's left is to complain on the Internet.

[fossala]

I acquired some Adam Curtis documentorys. Will watch some later tonight.

[dirge]

I acquired some Adam Curtis documentorys. Will watch some later tonight.

Your in for a treat and I'm a happy bunny as I'd totally missed "All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace" and I'm downloading it now.

He had a art/something installation a few years back, wish I'd actually went.

[Peter]

I blame Tatcherism, Reaganomics, the neo-cons and the banksters who bankroll their 'free market' propaganda .
It's not 'fuck ups' we've seen with all those 'bank-scandals', it's deliberate .
That's REAL money 'disappearing' .. It's the baby-boomer generation getting robbed silly off their pension-savings
and the young and the future generations being enslaved in monstrous 'housing-debt' at the same time .

Other than that, it's about time the USA starts to respect a thing called 'borders' ..
They are supposed to work both ways !

[dirge]

It's the baby-boomer generation getting robbed silly off their pension-savings
and the young and the future generations being enslaved in monstrous 'housing-debt' at the same time .

Bang on mate. Exactly that! They we're doubly fucked over too. Their age women didn't work, the mans wage was enough to support the family. When the women went to work it was sold as everyone would have so much free time as you'd have so much extra money coming in with two working.

Now it's £40 a day in child care, both parents have to work and houses / cars / petrol is so expensive the people claiming benefits are the only ones that can afford to have more than one child!

Benefits are going south very soon. Friends of mine are working on a DWP/HP project to unify all benefits systems in the UK with a view of raping anyone claiming... Crime will go through the roof when they haven't got enough to get without robbing people. (least you can kill them if they come in your house.... don't even lock the door now )

[Charlie_Brown_MX]

That's REAL money 'disappearing' .. It's the baby-boomer generation getting robbed silly off their pension-savings and the young and the future generations being enslaved in monstrous 'housing-debt' at the same time .

Ha! The Boomers were the ones who engineered the whole thing for their own benefit — they pushed their parents out to early retirement to guarantee themselves jobs, then expected early retirement themselves. One way of feathering their own nests was to play the housing game. Buy-to-lets increased *massively* under the Boomers: they bought up all the supply to further entrench their own privilege, which overheated the market and locked out young buyers. Add to that the fact they were responsible for outsourcing most manufacturing to the Far East — thus royally fucking over their own children economically — and I don’t feel too bad for them. It’s Gen X, Y, Z, and all the following that I feel bad for — *we’re* the ones who are going to have to pay for the long retirements the Boomers awarded themselves whilst simultaneously trying to dig ourselves out of the debt hole *they* created for us.