Why do you prefer the ANSI enter? Why the ISO enter?

[davkol]

Then there's the other valid annoyance, i.e. when people claim personal preference is entirely subjective and cannot be based on objective reasoning.

[Muirium]

Fortunately, we haven't reached that one, yet. Note that I used a spectrum metaphor. ANSI vs. ISO is a close enough fight, as the difference is so subtle, that there's little leverage for authentically objective arguments. That doesn't stop bullshit from putting on an objective hat, however.

A good comparison is the related but distinct argument over QWERTY vs. optimised layouts. Objective evidence is heaped against QWERTY, as it has clearly measurable inferiority to Colemak. So the terms of debate shift. We wind up arguing about adoption and network effects instead.

[davkol]

Availability of replacement sets and motion/distance required to reach desired key are measurable parameters. There's not enough knowledge on aesthetics... just yet.

[gioele]

Availability of replacement sets […] are measurable parameters.

I would say that the availability of replacement sets is more connected to the cultural background of the person or organization behind that set. If you are used to ANSI and you live in the USA, you probably do not care about ISO keyboards.

[Muirium]

Availability of replacement sets and motion/distance required to reach desired key are measurable parameters. There's not enough knowledge on aesthetics... just yet.

I agree with you on both of those, as I prefer ANSI too. (Despite living in the ISO world, with an excess of ISO keyboards in my own collection. That doesn't help the fact that SP and GMK are both ANSI biased, and so is every new GB.)

But does all that you said condemn people with a preference for ISO to having "measurably bad taste?" A preference can be informed by objective inputs, but people's habits and exposure are stronger weighted variables, as seen with QWERTY.

Although people have been analysing aesthetics since the ancient Greeks (golden ratio, carefully distorted columns, etc.), something tells me that beauty is in the eye of the subjective, irrational, badly informed beholder. Or art would be in big trouble once we find the global maximum!

[kbdfr]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that "personal preference" and "objective reasoning" are kind of contradictory.

"Generally, objectivity means the state or quality of being true even outside of a subject's individual biases, interpretations, feelings, and imaginings."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_(philosophy)

[Muirium]

Good point. I think we, or rather I've, wound up debating whether there's an objective input into subjective taste, but subjectivity is so wild and irrepressible that it's pretty pointless trying to figure it out from the outside. There'll be patterns (growing up used to one layout instead of the other) but the subject still rules supreme.

[Halvar]

Availability of replacement sets and motion/distance required to reach desired key are measurable parameters.

Number of keys is, too. And having a strong concept for adding additional characters (AltGr) or not having that concept. And "desired key" would have to be defined. And lower motion/distance is not automatically more desirable for every kind of key. And the used language and use case (writing novels in Swedish vs. programming in vi vs. programming in EMACS vs. writing limericks in English) would introduce important weighting factors.

Trying to objectify this question leads nowhere really.

[davkol]

But does all that you said condemn people with a preference for ISO to having "measurably bad taste?"

Yes.

A preference can be informed by objective inputs, but people's habits and exposure are stronger weighted variables, as seen with QWERTY.

Unfortunately.

Although people have been analysing aesthetics since the ancient Greeks (golden ratio, carefully distorted columns, etc.), something tells me that beauty is in the eye of the subjective, irrational, badly informed beholder. Or art would be in big trouble once we find the global maximum!

Neuroscience to the rescue!

[kbdfr]

But does all that you said condemn people with a preference for ISO to having "measurably bad taste?"

Yes. […]

And I do contend that the "measurably bad taste" is with whoever finds it is acceptable
- either not to align the right edge of the alpha cluster
- or to stretch a "character key" to 1.25u for no other reason than alignment of the right edge.

Now this is a highly objective argument, isn't it?

[davkol]

Availability of replacement sets and motion/distance required to reach desired key are measurable parameters.

Number of keys is, too. And having a strong concept for adding additional characters (AltGr) or not having that concept.

Last time I checked, the OP was about *Enter*, not whole layout.

But does all that you said condemn people with a preference for ISO to having "measurably bad taste?"

Yes. […]

And I do contend that the "measurably bad taste" is with whoever finds it is acceptable
- either not to align the right edge of the alpha cluster
- or to stretch a "character key" to 1.25u for no other reason than alignment of the right edge.

Now this is a highly objective argument, isn't it?

I actually think both suck. ~_^

[Findecanor]

How about this one? (provided that it is properly stabilised) This variety is seen on many typewriters. It combines the properties of ANSI (close on Home row) and ISO (big) in one. There is no reason why the right Shift key should be so large otherwise - it is here shrunk from 2.75u to 1.5u.

upsidedownbig.png (8.81 KiB) Viewed 3613 times

I wonder if SP makes a variation of this one in DCS or SA profile. I can't really decipher the code in the data sheets...

[davkol]

It makes right Shift + Arrows a bit tricky on ordinary keyboards... and I don't see any benefits either.

[kbdfr]

It makes right Shift + Arrows a bit tricky on ordinary keyboards... and I don't see any benefits either.

There we seem to agree:

right-hand configuration.jpg (44.11 KiB) Viewed 3600 times

[tobo]

Whoever voted for the Big-L enter, I got your back .

[Muirium]

Any other keys you like to supersize just for the hell of it? 10u space bar, surely…

[ullr]

The rest of that keyboard is one big key.

[xwhatsit]

10u space bar, surely…

c.f. 3727 or 3278.
(ok, maybe only 9u)

[andrewjoy]

I use both and i am ok with switching now,things i don't like about ansi are the placement of the |\ key and @ key. I think however ansi looks better than ISO.

If i was to be forced to chose however i would chose ISO as i have used it for longer

[sth]

frankly, i would love to have a 60% board with a bigass enter.