Damped NovaTouch vs. Topre Realforce and HHKB

[klikkyklik]

If there is one more board I "must have", it is something with Alps green linears, possibly a Zenith ZKB-2. I have a board with Alps green linear clones, but I'd like to try the real thing if they're still in fairly good condition.

[TheNacho]

I need to get myself a set of SA caps some time. I prefer higher profiles, so those look rather nice.

[Muirium]

SA is intense. You know where to look!

[TheNacho]

SA is intense. You know where to look!

I know where to look, but after buying the dampers and being a poor student, I dont know when I have the budget for these

[Muirium]

That's the good thing about 7bit's "deadlines". No rush. Even if he says there is! You have months at least.

[Hypersphere]

It seems that keycaps can make a major difference in the sound of the NT. I just unboxed mine again to test a few things. Currently, I have a set of Leopold PBT keycaps on the board, and there is quite a lot of bottoming-out noise, especially from the larger keys, such as Tab, Backslash, Return, Left Shift, and Right Shift. It sounds like the keycaps are hitting the top of the case. However, I don't mind this sort of bottoming-out noise as much as the return-stroke clack and the rattle of the stabilizers in the stabilized keys. I am still debating whether to use my last set of silencing rings on the NT or the RF, although Mu's recommendation to go with the NT is fairly persuasive.

[combataran]

I'm actually more interested in the boards than the dampening pads themselves. I've had expereriences with a 45g RF before, but sadly buyers remorse kicked in and I had to let it go. Which of the 4 was the most consistent for you(Mu)?

[Hypersphere]

I'm actually more interested in the boards than the dampening pads themselves. I've had expereriences with a 45g RF before, but sadly buyers remorse kicked in and I had to let it go. Which of the 4 was the most consistent for you(Mu)?

Just curious -- What did you not like about the 45g RF? In any event, if you have already ruled out the 45g RF, this helps to narrow the field. If you want a heavier switch, you could try a 55g RF, or if you can find some 55g domes, you could install them in a HHKB.

[Muirium]

Yeah, it would help to know what (if anything?) you didn't like about the 45g Realforce you had before.

I like my HHKB the best of all because of its form factor, lightness, silencing, and also the plastic plate which makes it so light physically too. But these are all subjective things. My 55g Realforce here is built like a tank, easy as reassuringly sound as my SSK, and I can see why some people prefer the Realforce because of this. The NovaTouch is an amazing board now with Round 5 caps and damping, I still like the native Topre boards a bit more. but things are much closer now. For the first time, my NovaTouch is really in contention.

[Hypersphere]

Yesterday and today I was reevaluating my Novatouch and RF87UB 55g. Again, the RF was the winner. I suppose I should install a set of "Hyper-Rings" in the NT to see how much better I like it then. However, the RF just seems like the more elegant board, and it has some extra touches that the NT lacks, such as DIP switches, LEDs for CapsLock and NumLock, and an embedded numeric keypad.

Despite all the positive attributes of the RF, I end up returning to my HHKB, especially the one I've modded with 55g domes, silencing rings, and replacement Topre keycaps. The HHKB wins overall for me because of the 60% form factor and layout. However, I think, but I am not sure, that I might like the HHKB even more if it had a steel plate like the RF, but part of the functional charm of the HHKB is the extra resilience of its plastic case-mounted switches.

[Muirium]

Extra resilience?

Anyway, I may be checking out some MX Topre sliders soon, so I'll try those in my Realforce and see how it handles the challenge of Round 5. Perhaps. It's not a sure thing yet. I missed the GB, and rely on a favour.

[combataran]

Just curious -- What did you not like about the 45g RF? In any event, if you have already ruled out the 45g RF, this helps to narrow the field. If you want a heavier switch, you could try a 55g RF, or if you can find some 55g domes, you could install them in a HHKB.

The switches were a little too mushy(?), and I just couldn't quite get where the actuation point was. Sometimes it would be a little higher, sometimes a little lower, overall it was a very inconsistent feeling, and I wasn't comfortable spending that kind of money for that kind of experience. That said, the 45 RF was the only Topre I have ever tried, so my judgement wasn't entirely fair. The upstroke of the caps were my favourite part of the board, as to me they sound like when you're breaking off pieces of chocolate off a bar.

Yeah, it would help to know what (if anything?) you didn't like about the 45g Realforce you had before.

I like my HHKB the best of all because of its form factor, lightness, silencing, and also the plastic plate which makes it so light physically too. But these are all subjective things. My 55g Realforce here is built like a tank, easy as reassuringly sound as my SSK, and I can see why some people prefer the Realforce because of this. The NovaTouch is an amazing board now with Round 5 caps and damping, I still like the native Topre boards a bit more. but things are much closer now. For the first time, my NovaTouch is really in contention.

My answer, as above. The hhkb was a solid no for me, I needed more keys than that, and the only viable alternative at the time(way before the novatouch was even rumored) were the RF boards, and I had a thing for TKLs, so I went with the RF45. I can truthfully say that I regretted it. Though after a year or so of using a 1000HFD, my opinions have changed. Now I'm not so sure that my favourite switches are Cherries any more, and I'd like to give Topre another chance.

[amospalla]

It is curious for me reading other opinions about Topre switch. I remember my first impresion of the switch when I first tested my 45g Realforce. When I inmediately started writing with it, within the first keystrokes, my impression was something like "omg this is is georgeously amazing", and it actually was like that. That sensation fades with time, but I get it again when I start using it at mornings and specially when I have not used the keyboard for one or two days. The best thing I can do to have that again use another keyboard for a while and come back.

With this said I have no other path than having to start again with Topre switch and test all its variants :'( .

[seebart]

With this said I have no other path than having to start again with Topre switch and test all its variants :'( .

that's going to be an expensive test, I'm sure you have seen this:

http://deskthority.net/try-f29/the-real ... ml#p247088

[amospalla]

With this said I have no other path than having to start again with Topre switch and test all its variants :'( .

that's going to be an expensive test, I'm sure you have seen this:

http://deskthority.net/try-f29/the-real ... ml#p247088

Sure it will be. I already own a 45g, waiting for a new 55g to arrive. I would like to try also the 30g but that will be some day as my bank account has to rest a bit.

My initial intention buying the 55g was trying it and sell the one of the two, but I am afraid I won't sell it It has been a productive (and expensive year) regarding keyboards.

[Muirium]

They're all good. 30g surprised me: it's so nice! But I'm an HHKB lover, and opinion clearly differs on this.

If you want a real contrast, though, get a buckling spring. I like to Topre - SSK - Topre - Model F. That way the differences are really sharp and I get a lot of that first time feel you mentioned. In both directions! Because I really like them both.

[cookie]

Nice results you've got there. And thanks for the Informations about the dampering ring interest check. But mate, 75 cent for one ring was shocking expensive :O

[Muirium]

Aye, like I said on the other thread:

The thickness is just right. Thinner than your dampers (which I've got inside the same keyboard) and very flexible. They're made of something quite tough though, teflon coated I think, so I reckon they'll last for years.

That's what makes them quite expensive too. Especially with European shipping taxes on top! Which is why I keep murmuring about a GB.

I'm not sure how Hyper's making these. But just the raw material alone is quite expensive.

[Khers]

I'm not sure how Hyper's making these. But just the raw material alone is quite expensive.

Hyper mentioned here or in the other thread that the material was a pita to cut and that he's using a CO2-laser.

[amospalla]

They're all good. 30g surprised me: it's so nice! But I'm an HHKB lover, and opinion clearly differs on this.

If you want a real contrast, though, get a buckling spring. I like to Topre - SSK - Topre - Model F. That way the differences are really sharp and I get a lot of that first time feel you mentioned. In both directions! Because I really like them both.

I have a M2 and while the switch itself has a very nice tactile feedback, it feels stiff to me. I've been told that a M is differeent to a M2, but I guess it will be as stiff.

[Muirium]

Guess again. The M2 is very different to earlier, more expensive designs of buckling spring. The best is Model F, which is smooth and light, and very noisy! Model M is in the middle. And M2 is a pale imitation of its ancestors. Nice, in a way, but you've correctly identified its major flaw.

[amospalla]

Guess again. The M2 is very different to earlier, more expensive designs of buckling spring. The best is Model F, which is smooth and light, and very noisy! Model M is in the middle. And M2 is a pale imitation of its ancestors. Nice, in a way, but you've correctly identified its major flaw.

Mh.. interesting, do you mean that a model M is not as stiff?

[Muirium]

Now you're getting it!

[amospalla]

hehe, that explains lot of things to me

But... wait! my quest is even more far to end now I know it...

[Hypersphere]

Regarding costs and other updates on silencing rings for Topre-switch keyboars, please see this thread:

http://deskthority.net/help-f53/silenci ... 10051.html

Thanks.

[Muirium]

Just got my Realforce back together now, after installing the handful of leftover dampers I had from the NovaTouch. Goodness me! The effect is just as nice on the 55g 87U. I put them on the spacebar, arrow keys and the mods. Very pleased I did. The spacebar in particular now is sublime. It's one of Matteo's PBT replacements, which improves the sound already, and now it's nice and quiet on the upstroke too.

Bugger, I didn't leave any leftovers for the HHKB… mine's a Type-S, so should be damped already, but I really prefer this spacebar now. Perhaps Hyper's rings work better than Topre's own!

[Hypersphere]

@Mu: Things are getting busy again with some travel and the impending start of the new academic year, but my goal is to have Round 2 of the Silencing Rings available by mid-September.

[Muirium]

Cool. No rush on my part! They're worth waiting for.

[zslane]

I'm curious as to just how necessary it is for the silencing material to be some form of rubber. The goal, as I understand it, is to simply prevent the plastic-on-plastic contact that creates a sharp, high-frequency noise. Wouldn't a durable fabric do the trick as well? And a layer of fabric, like say denim, would also be thin enough not to impact key travel hardly at all. Has anyone ever tried something like that?

[Muirium]

I've tried a few different damper materials. Cookie sent me three different kinds (including yellow felt from table tennis bats) and while all of them were thin enough, only that yellow felt was much good at damping the NovaTouch. Hypersphere's material is a bit better at it, lending a nice smooth sound. There was definitely a range of effectiveness in my experience. The material must be thin yet just compressible enough to absorb the impact effectively. It's a tight set of constraints that also happens to be inconvenient to explore with repeated experiment as you have to reassemble the keyboard to actually find the feel!