Bad blood with vintage computing community? Preposterous!

[XMIT]

I've heard - several times, from several different sources - that the "vintage computer" and the "vintage keyboard" folks don't always get along. I've heard accusations that we, the keyboard folks, make their hobby harder by driving up the value of keyboards for vintage terminals, separating terminals from keyboards, and causing otherwise salvageable terminals to be thrown away.

It's a sticky situation for sure.

Here's what I personally can do to help: if you are a collector who is looking to restore a system, I will work with you on pricing to make certain you can get what you need!

[Muirium]

If I was one of them, I’d loathe us keeb kiddies, too.

(Even used ironically, I feel dirty invoking that 4 letter word…)

It’s a real problem when one component of a system is in much higher demand than the rest. I feel for them. But no way am I getting into CRTs and all the rest of it. I’d rather just own up to my own hypocrisy than find all the extra storage for a substantially more space consuming hobby!

You’re doing the right thing, XMIT. Just make sure they show you pics to earn their deserved discount. Some of us kids can be right unscrupulous.

[XMIT]

Keyboard repair is its own specialty. I'd prefer to be seen, not as a competitor to a collector, but as an ally.

In many cases, I am able to repair the key switches in an integrated terminal. Or, for a terminal with a discrete keyboard, I can perform repairs and modifications to a greater degree than the collector can. Some collectors are afraid of pulling key caps or opening boards due to lack of familiarity.

In some cases, a keyboard person can provide missing keys, fix electrical problems, or even provide a nicer keyboard.

Pricing is the biggest problem. I try to remember that, for the most part, I'm fishing things out of the trash. Sure, it's tempting to get $1500 for a Beam spring keyboard. But, at least personally, my goals include keeping items from going to the recycler and not bleeding too much money. If someone had a real 3278 that they were trying to restore, I'd find cut them a deal.

[JP!]

I've seen this hatred from one particular elitist gate-keeping vintage computer collector who despises us to an absolute extreme degree regardless of whether you express interest in branching out into vintage computers. I can understand some of the 'bad blood' of course. I recently acquired a system that had a collectible keyboard that uniquely went with that system. The seller told me that they fended off 'several' people who were inquiring just the keyboard but this seller didn't feel right about separating the keyboard fortunately. I would have been heartbroken if he had. I'm still an unrepentant keyboard collector but 99% of my boards were 'loose' where the computer likely had been scrapped or sold years prior. I've actually ended up with quite a few computers now because they were complete with keyboard.

[depletedvespene]

To a quite lesser degree, I've pulled the same. About three years ago, I got an IBM Portable PC for peanuts on eBay, thinking of keeping the keyboard and discarding the rest. Then, once I got my hands on it, and saw that the whole unit looked in pretty good condition (although it didn't boot), I felt bad about my initial plan... but now, that Portable PC is in storage, waiting to be repaired (with its keyboard).

[depletedvespene]

Ultimately, it comes down to the "anomaly" that vintage keyboards are — unlike the rest of the components of a computer, keyboards from three decades ago are still usable without much issue, to the point that Model M keyboards can't really be called "vintage", as they have been in continuous, essentially unchanged, production during all this time. Compare that to a mouse from, say, 2005, or to a hard drive from 2010.

It should also be noted that, for a time, this was going on with computer monitors, as well. Remember 2006..2010, before LCD screens really matured (and IPS ceased to be excessively expensive)? At the time, high-end CRT monitors were highly sought after and, as the replacements that were being pushed on to the market weren't up to their standards. We were worried sick about each and everyone of those CRTs, as each unit that kicked the bucket meant a diminished experience. Then LCD screens actually reached their level, and that niche vintage item ceased to be sought after.

Yet... keyboards of old, the good stuff... still remain highly wanted, and a good part of it is because they reached the peak back then, and any improvements that may come up nowadays is marginal.

[Rayndalf]

I'm not a proper vintage computer collector (and I have no qualms intrusively converting proprietary terminal boards orphaned by a computer recycling company... if anyone ever finds a functioning GEAC terminal I'll eat my hat), but I collect a lot of different junk and I'm disgusted by some of what I see.

Wyse terminal boards used to be $30-50 a piece a few (2-3?) years ago, now they're $75-100. On it's own that's not bad, but now people are tearing down G80-3000s and even G80-1838s (Compaq WoB with browns) just for the damn "vintage" switches. As someone who collects Cherry boards it's easier to find something without a wiki page than try for a "more common" G80-3000.

I once bought a QX3 and I really thought about ripping out the Hirose Orange Meme switches (which aren't worth the price, just get a modern Durock/ JWK linear). I did some research and apparently it was Yamaha's flagship sequencer at the time. I now own a QX1 (in need of a floppy to boot) and a QX3 that just needs a new LCD.

I still might replace the meme switches with Tangerines because the Hirose switches feel bad and sell for more than a second QX3 . I just need to shave the new switches so they can mount the old keycaps.


On the other hand as F XTs go up in price so does the IBM 5150 (and related models). makes a big difference when shipping costs what it does, so in some ways the keeb frenzy is helping preserve certain systems. Definitely makes restoring a terminal from the 70s or early 80s pretty terrible though. Really got to hope it doesn't have a microswitch keyboard.

[zrrion]

for all the MX boards thats only half the story, the prices for them are going up, but when someone tries to sell/give away the caps+pcb+case they often can't find a home for them. If the boards were that interesting without the switches then you'd expect more interest in them right? (I still think prices are way too high, )

For me personally, if the board is both rare and is needed for a system but the switches can be replaced with modern alternatives then its fine to swap them and give it to someone who needs the board for the system. If that collector wants to bitch that it isn't original then they don't actually care about the system and they don't want it for the system, they want it for the keyboard and anyone who wants a cool keyboard can pay market or troll ebay for deals like the rest of us. I've traded folks to get them a docutech board before so that they could pair it with the system I even left the browns in it. Its just the cool thing to do if you can.
If it isn't rare or isn't required for the system (any AT or XT board, apple boards, dell at101 are all examples of non-common, non proprietary boards) those are also fine to harvest from. Same rules about what to do with the leftovers applies here as well, if someone doesn't like the replacement switches then they can get in line for market price like everyone else.

For proprietary but common, or rare but non-proprietary thats a more of a case-by-case thing. I'm of the opinion that converters should be made so that proprietary boards can be replaced by any USB keyboard. Even if "keyboard kids" as we get called weren't buying up all the keyboards then vintage computer people would still dry up the supply eventually and having a USB adapter (or an open source replacement using available switches) would solve that eventual supply issue regardless of who causes it. I don't see many vintage computer folks starting keyboard replacement projects though, and I suspect thats because they don't actually care about the supply, they care about the price, which is kinda entitled IMO.

[Rayndalf]

for all the MX boards thats only half the story, the prices for them are going up, but when someone tries to sell/give away the caps+pcb+case they often can't find a home for them. If the boards were that interesting without the switches then you'd expect more interest in them right? (I still think prices are way too high, )

Usually people buy a board for worth $100 (or what ever), lube the switches and sell them for $120 and try to sell the leftovers for $75 (or shove new switches into it and try to get $125 for it).

If it's a Cherry G80-3000 then the caps are also missing (and a decent set is $120 to replace by Mechmarket prices, so you have a set of CRP caps you picked up years ago for just the occassion). Pro tip just spend $150 on a G80-3000, then sell the switches yourself (assuming you don't want linears).

G80s can be rebuilt but if it's just the case and PCB then you might as well just buy the case and get a new PCB... and stabs and switches and caps... it's sucks.

No keycaps or switches is a death blow when it's an Alps board with a unique layout.

I might be a minority, but if someone is selling a complete boards sans switches for a fair price I'd be quite interested (assuming I'm not broke). Usually people want $50-100 for scraps and I could buy a complete board for not much more and save myself the trouble of working around a burnt circuit board.

As for MX though, you're right. I have the best luck buying boards (which have them super duper ＷＥＳＴ ＧＥＲＭＡＮ vintage blacks***) from other members of the community. As long as the seller doesn't put "vintage blacks" in the title then the listing will attract little attention on Mechmarket and the hardest part is convincing them to ship to the US. People who sell on Deskthority are the real heroes.

[zrrion]

I've literally tried to give wyse chassis away for shipping and didn't get any takers, granted this was a while ago but still. no one wanted them. for a G80-3000 you can get cheap caps for those. If you want OG parts over functionality then you're gonna have to get in line.

[Redmaus]

Like vespene said, vintage keyboards are in a rare position of still being useful with modern systems. The same can't be said for drives, mice, monitors, and other peripherals.

Probably the most frustrating part for the vintage computer folks is that if they have a 5251 terminal system w/o the keyboard, they now have to pay over $1000 in order to complete something they probably paid less than $300 for. There are also a lot of ebay sellers that deliberately separate the keyboards from systems and sell separately since they know the keyboard people will pay more. That gets a lot worse when you have something super rare( like an IBM multistation) and a vintage computer person has the system and now has to find something that not only vintage computing people are looking for but also mechanical keyboard enthusiasts(who are also used to paying a lot more).

Experiences like these I'm guessing leave a very salty taste in the mouth of many vintage computer members who have to pay 3x or up to 10x more than what they used to pay for just the keyboard. I'm sure the thought of salvaging switches is something they don't like either, as you take the mechanical keyboard value from the board and disregard the collector/vintage computing value.

I have an IBM P70 and IBM displaywriter, and both are very interesting in their own right and I shan't be separating either from their host systems. Hopefully I can get the displaywriter printer working and maybe print order invoices with it But I have to say, I get a lot more use out of the displaywriter converted compared to it being connected to the OG system. But the keyboard for a vintage system is essential in many cases, as many systems won't even boot without a keyboard attached, destroying any possibility of having the machine in a working state.

It's really just two communities with sometimes competing interests, and all the ebay sellers care about is who will pay more. Unfortunately for the retro computing folks often the mechanical keyboard people are willing to pay more for their holy beamspring.

[Rayndalf]

I've literally tried to give wyse chassis away for shipping and didn't get any takers, granted this was a while ago but still. no one wanted them. for a G80-3000 you can get cheap caps for those. If you want OG parts over functionality then you're gonna have to get in line.

Any reccomendations for cheap sets with WKL support, a numpad and a stepped capslock? I have a couple G80 cases that could use some love and this https://cannonkeys.com/products/geekark ... 4328785007 sold out faster than I was expecting.

This whole hobby is nothing but window shopping and waiting, so if I have to get in line I will, but complaining is a fun way to pass the time

I just hate when people teardown old boards and sell them piecemeal to make more money. The complete examples (unrestored or lovingly rebuilt) being cheaper than seperate parts is a pain.

[Reshala]

I hate keyboard pirating and wouldn't mind selling my not yet converted proprietary keyboard to someone with the system with a fraction of the price lol

[pandrew]

I'd be happy to help reverse engineer old protocols and build reverse converters for old systems, so people could use modern keyboards on old systems.
I'm not sure how much that would help to fix any bad feelings though.

[XMIT]

I've discussed the idea of reverse converters with my collector friend. I think a part of it is the desire for some system that is as close as possible to what was shipped. I think another is a lack of understanding that you can swap out practically any PS/2 keyboard with a protocol converter.

[dkarguth]

One of the big problems with making a converter is that while you may end up with a functional keyboard in the end, it is not really the same as having the original keyboard. Ignoring the obvious cosmetic mismatch, old terminals and keyboards often have special layouts and special keys, and a lot of terminal boards actually have DIP-switches or LEDs built into them to set and view settings of the terminal. So while a converter might solve the problem of having a dysfunctional board, it'd be like getting a Mercedes and installing 4 doughnut spares. Sure it works, but it is not an enjoyable experience and it looks stupid. Just my 2 cents.

[zrrion]

with the amount of custom keyboard projects going on right now that don't resemble a standard layout and that have extra features like extra LEDs or rotary encoders it would not be hard at all to make a custom board that replicated the layout and the extra features of an older keyboard. the only feature that would be hard to replicate would be latching switches, but that is because no manufacturer currently produces those for some reason. For those you would have to build a logical latch into the board and ad an indicator LED. This is how it was done on the replacement C64 keyboard that used MX switches IIRC.