Swapping black ALPS with blue // ALPS doubleshots?

[Paranoid]

Hi guys,

I'm currently swapping my black ALPS switches with some blue ones but I was wondering if just replacing the stems, springs and leaves (so only the top part) would have the same result as desoldering everything from one keyboard and solder it back to the other.
Because it seems as though the bottom part is also slightly different, which would mean it's not a "true' blue ALPS switch anymore. I watched this guy to see how I can remove them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AafYXUk413g

I can't say for sure that I notice the difference in just the top part being swapped, only a slight sound difference, which could be because they are two different keyboards..

If anyone has any wisdom in this matter, please do share!

*edit:
Seems that desoldering them is not rlly an option. The ones in a Dell AT102W are really stuck in there, unless you posses some supertools ^^
I'd still like to know what the difference in the rear plastic plates of the switches are. I have them in white and in gray.
It also seems the blacks are real ALPS (they have the logo). The blue ones don't have a logo (a keyboard from Nan-Tan).

*second edit:
I got this dirty keyboard and it seems to me that this could be doubleshot ALPS keycaps. Can anyone verify this? It's a Tulip 11-500032-01. Here are some pics:

IMG_0268.JPG (485.18 KiB) Viewed 6850 times

IMG_0267.JPG (448.43 KiB) Viewed 6850 times

After some searching I found another one of these on the internet claiming to be a french layout keyboard. But that doesn't look anything like a french azerty in my opinion. Unless they have some underground layouts in france :p
Can anybody tell me what layout this really is and would anyone be interested in those if they are indeed doubleshots? Then I can contact the seller and get them, because I can't use all of those keys.

6554314279.jpg (25.19 KiB) Viewed 6850 times

[maxrunner]

Yeah, i would also like to know to desoldering the switches.

[Magna224]

Blue ALPS usually do not have an ALPS logo on the top of the housing.

[hasu]

Some says gray contact plate is better. How do you feel the difference?
Green with gray plate is very smooth though I have not compared with white plate.

[ndp]

I also replaced the black ALPS on my Dell with white complicated ones.
You should also swap the top housing. The Logo in NOT the only difference, the parts of the top housing hit by the stem are also different. On a blue/white switche it makes the sound more 'deep'

[Paranoid]

@Magna224: thx, good to know! ^^

@hasu: I've tested them a little bit and I'm not quite sure what my impressions are. I would say when I use the grey contact plates it requires a tiny bit less force than when I use the white ones.

black alps - white plate

IMG_0257.JPG (294.15 KiB) Viewed 6875 times

blue alps - grey plate

IMG_0258.JPG (308.5 KiB) Viewed 6875 times

black on grey

IMG_0261.JPG (461.24 KiB) Viewed 6875 times

blue on white

IMG_0262.JPG (375.32 KiB) Viewed 6875 times

putting some coins on it

IMG_0260.JPG (360.43 KiB) Viewed 6875 times

I've taken some pictures and tested it with some euro coins, although I would say that it's not very accurate since I noticed that some keys were easier to press than others (must be from the age and dust).
Here are the conclusions I made, which are not to be taken as correct measurements but just a little test:
black on white: 1x€2, 3x€0.5, 4x€1, 2x€0.2 = ~73 gr
black on grey: 1x€2, 3x€0.5, 3x€1, 2x€0.2 = ~65gr

blue on white: 1x€2, 3x€0.5, 4x€1, 2x€0.2 = ~73gr
blue on grey: 1x€2, 3x€0.5, 4x€1, 1x€0.2 = ~67gr

@ndp: What do you mean with the top housing? Do you mean the part that's connected to the plate?

white plate bottom

IMG_0264.JPG (313.83 KiB) Viewed 6875 times

grey plate bottom

IMG_0266.JPG (394.88 KiB) Viewed 6875 times

I did in fact see a difference there from the beginning and also noticed a difference in sound. But then again, I also notice a difference in sound with different keys on one keyboard as well

[RC-1140]

TBH I still don't get why one would want to open every damn switch instead of soldering other ones in. On Cherry Boards that's great, but the last time I opened a complicated ALPS it took me 5 minutes to reassemble it correctly. Soldering switches is faster imho.

[Paranoid]

TBH I still don't get why one would want to open every damn switch instead of soldering other ones in. On Cherry Boards that's great, but the last time I opened a complicated ALPS it took me 5 minutes to reassemble it correctly. Soldering switches is faster imho.

I haven't checked how (de)soldering a Cherry board works, but from what I'm seeing on my ALPS boards I would need and extra set of hands to desolder them I haven't found anything yet online on how to do it either. I'll try them again later.

Also small update on top: doubleshot keycaps or not? That's the question!

[hasu]

@hasu: I've tested them a little bit and I'm not quite sure what my impressions are. I would say when I use the grey contact plates it requires a tiny bit less force than when I use the white ones.

Paranoid,
Thank you for sharing your thought and experiment with the community.
Good luck with your modding!

[huttala]

I have done some desoldering with alps. It's easy, and I would not recommend you to open the switches up instead of desoldering. Getting the switches together again is a pain in the ass.

I do have some pics of the work I did, but cant post the pics now since im on my phone at work atm.

[Charlie_Brown_MX]

I have done some desoldering with alps. It's easy, and I would not recommend you to open the switches up instead of desoldering. Getting the switches together again is a pain in the ass.

I second that. I’ve desoldered several hundred ALPS switches from various AEKIIs and a McDonnell–Douglas, and it’s *much* easier than disassembling the actual switch in situ. All you need is a soldering iron and some solderwick and you can do them quite quickly.

[Paranoid]

hmm ok, guess I'll try it again later with some solderwick. I've got a desoldering pump but that didn't take all the soldering away.

huttala, your pics will always be a welcome addition

[Charlie_Brown_MX]

hmm ok, guess I'll try it again later with some solderwick. I've got a desoldering pump but that didn't take all the soldering away.

Solderwick is one of those things that seems like magic: hold it on top of the joint, apply heat, and watch it soak up the solder. It’s more expensive than using a solder pump, but the results are better so I think it’s worth it.

[Paranoid]

Well I got some solderwick yesterday but it didn't take too well with the solder that was on the boards. Could be the solder, the wick or the iron or the user :p But doesn't matter because I learned how to use the desoldering pump and it worked really well.
I desoldered two boards, folded the pins straight, took the circuit board off and took all the switches out. Desoldering took about half an hour per board once I got in the groove. In total the dissassembly took about an hour. The folding of the pins and getting every switch out one by one took some time next part is putting everything back in and soldering :p
I took some pictures of the process for anyone needing them. I'll post them tonight.

****Does anyone have a response wether those caps are doubleshot or not? And if they are woth something to ALPS users? Because I can get another one of those if anyone would be interested

[Icarium]

They are doubleshot but I doubt that there will be much interest in them.

[Paranoid]

They are doubleshot but I doubt that there will be much interest in them.

Alrighty then. I thought with all the doubleshot madness for MX some ALPS fans would enjoy them as well

Anyway, here are the promised pics from the demontage of my Dell AT102W board. In the end you can also see the blue ones which came from a NanTan.

Solder removed and pins straightened

IMG_0269.JPG (358.37 KiB) Viewed 6679 times

circuit board removed

IMG_0270.JPG (470.52 KiB) Viewed 6679 times

switch removed

IMG_0272.JPG (353.53 KiB) Viewed 6679 times

both boards desoldered

IMG_0277.JPG (535 KiB) Viewed 6679 times

bucket of black alps

IMG_0281.JPG (329.17 KiB) Viewed 6679 times

bucket of blue alps

IMG_0282.JPG (313.81 KiB) Viewed 6679 times

[huttala]

Forgot to add the pics, but it seems like you did just fine without them. And the pump is much better to use when you desolder, but you figured that out as well.

Good job!

[maxrunner]

Very nice pics. I'm currently in the verge of swapping my type II/IV white alps Ortek MCK-84 to blue alps. But i'm new using soldering iron, any starting tips ? Do i need any extra caring regarding the switch pins?

regards,

[Paranoid]

well, for desoldering I would highly recommend a desoldering pump. You can't get the solder off easier any other way. What you do is you place your iron on the soldered contact, wait untill it melts and then suck it up with your pump. You have to do this for all of the contacts of course.

After you've desoldered everything you probably have to fold the pins in an upward position (I guess this depends on the board but for an AT102/101(w) they are folded down against the motherboard). I used a simple tweeser to do this. One thing you have to be careful with is when the solder is not completely gone you could damage a small bit of the round circuit where you solder the contact on. Just be careful that you don't completely destroy that area so that you can still solder your new switches in. But normally it shouldn't be that much of a problem, just a heads up
The pins themselve are pretty though so you don't have to worry about it. At least I haven't broken any pins yet (I can't say the same for switch housings :p)
Double check if you have desoldered all pins. If you don't and you pull the pcb off, you break it. It happened to me once so there

Now carefully pull off the circuit board, you don't want to break it in half. Depending if you have plate mounted switches or not you'll also have to remove each switch from the plate. You can do this by pushing back the small plastic flaps that you'll see are on the switch overlapping with the plate.

After that you have to do everything in reverse. Place the switches in the plate (in the correct position, check this on your pcb). Make sure your pins are pretty straight so you can easily put the pcb back on. Adjust the pins accordingly if they don't fit right away, don't force it. You can choose if you want to fold the pins back or not. And if so, if you do it before or after the soldering.

When soldering them back, make sure the switches are pressed against the pcb so that you don't have a wavy pcb or gaps here or there. Not that it really matters when you put it in the case, but just to put everything back together as you should and to make sure things fit again nicely.
Then to solder it, place your iron on the contact/round soldering area, wait untill it gets hot (don't wait too long, a couple of seconds tops) and push some solder against it so it melts nicely into place. If you do a couple of these you'll quickly see how it works and you'll get the hang of it.
It will take some time desoldering and soldering everything back together so there is no need to rush.
I would recommend doing it over some ventilation or the kitchen fan (hood?) to avoid those smelly unhealthy fumes. And also be careful not to stick yourself with the soldering iron, that's not so fun :p

If you want some visual stuff you can always Youtube it
Good luck!

[maxrunner]

Yep the keyboard i want to "recover" is an Ortek mck-84, I'll post pics then, a bit worried about this part:

" One thing you have to be careful with is when the solder is not completely gone you could damage a small bit of the round circuit where you solder the contact on."

Still, i'll post pics later.I'll try to advance this in the weekend.

regards.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It's not a question of colour (white vs grey), the difference is whether the switchplate (the plastic block that contains the contact mechanism) reaches the bottom of the switch housing. The original switchplate did, later ones did not. Typically the full-height switchplate was grey and the short ones white, but that's not the case for every batch of switches.

I don't actually understand what it is about the longer switchplate that is supposed to improve the feel, because the slider doesn't make contact with it. It's only theory. For example, Edgar Matias reported that Matias Corp had to drop the orange pigmentation in their sliders because it interfered with keyfeel. It may be that the shorter switchplate just coincided with other cost savings including a different plastic. Someone above also noted that the upper switch housing affects the sound. It's these kinds of subtleties that took Matias two years to design a switch, while companies such as XM just get it wrong every time.

As with most things Alps, the theory has not been rigorously tested. I do know that when I briefly played with a couple of vintage Macintosh keyboards (Macintosh 128k and one of the pink/orange Alps boards), they felt buttery smooth, not rough and scratchy like my NIB AT101W. However, I need a lot more evidence than a brief experience a couple of years ago to be sure (can't believe I didn't snap up that latter Mac board).

Interestingly, your black plate looks to be identical to the plate in my NTC 6153EN Type IV simplified board, while the PCB is completely different:

NTC 6153EN plate.jpg (291.48 KiB) Viewed 6465 times

[maxrunner]

Hey Daniel, what's the odd of an old chicony rebranded keyboard has real complicated alps switches? i know its a chicony because that name appears in the chip controller inside the keyboard.
Edit: Just got a blue alps board from Fossala and the switches are like butter when they slide, is that a good indication of being a real Alps switch?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I wouldn't know the odds of switch types in Chicony boards – I think they changed switch every year or some such.

Clicky Alps switches are always really smooth by design, even the clones – smoothness was never an issue. Original Alps blue switches are a duller, greyish shade of blue compared to clones, though. They also have a very deep pitch for a clicky switch.

[maxrunner]

Ok. Anyway, didnt found the time to start the mod, but i already have a solder iron with two positions 30/60 w, assume 30 will be enouth. One desoldering pump but not solder besides the one that came with the iron. I do have a doubt, whe soldering/desoldering i assume the iron should never touch the contact connectors of the pcb?Also what does this description mean:
"Tin the iron tip by applying some rosin core solder. Heat the connecting points(not the solder) and apply some solder to the heated parts".
Thats in the iron solder manual.Tin the iron is putting some solder on it right? But the second part im not following. What d they mean by heating the connection points?

[maxrunner]

Also, Paranoid your desolder pump is equals to mine(from Salki) and on the paper it says "change tips simply by simply turning tips counter clock wise". What tip is this? The metal one inside?

[Paranoid]

whe soldering/desoldering i assume the iron should never touch the contact connectors of the pcb?

You can touch the contacts on the pcb, doesn't really matter, as long as you don't hold your iron there. If you hold it for too long and your iron is too hot you might damage the pcb, but not in a way that it's broken. It will just melt a bit I guess :p Haven't really tried that out on purpose

Also what does this description mean:
"Tin the iron tip by applying some rosin core solder. Heat the connecting points(not the solder) and apply some solder to the heated parts".
Thats in the iron solder manual.Tin the iron is putting some solder on it right? But the second part im not following. What d they mean by heating the connection points?

Tin the iron is putting some solder on, correct. Heating the connection points is just holding your solder iron against your contact or connector points. When you have some solder on the tip and the contacts get hot, the solder will flow onto the contacts (normally). It could be that you have to add some solder in the process.
For soldering the switch contacts I generally just put the iron against the pin and pcb contact, wait a second or so until it's heated and add solder until everything is nice and filled. Putting solder on the tip first doesn't give an additional benefit in this case I believe. When soldering wires that's different ^^

Also, Paranoid your desolder pump is equals to mine(from Salki) and on the paper it says "change tips simply by simply turning tips counter clock wise". What tip is this? The metal one inside?

Uh, you can screw the tip off by turning it, but I just use that to clean it out when it's full or when the tip is blocked. It could be that you can put a new tip (the white plastic) in case it gets damaged during use or age but I haven't used mine to such an extent that it needs replacing

[maxrunner]

Thanks. So you not always tin the tip of the iron. ok, i'm making all these questions because i don't have a testing board and it's my first time using the iron solder. So for soldering switches you put the iron against the pin and the pcb contact and apply the solder above the tip. Also looking at the videos on youtube(like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLgQvmF ... re=related) my iron tip seems more sharp, i assume this isnt a problem?

[maxrunner]

Very nice pics. I'm currently in the verge of swapping my type II/IV white alps Ortek MCK-84 to blue alps. But i'm new using soldering iron, any starting tips ? Do i need any extra caring regarding the switch pins?

regards,

So i managed to remove three switches from the board i want to get the switches from, but boy is it hard. I think my problem is that my iron solder has a too sharp point.
It's this one, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j5InYnp-xs.
Also i assume the 30W mode is enough. Im using a desolder pump but i think maybe the desolder wick might be a good alternative. Need to try first. still after desoldering the switches what is the best way to remove them from the plate? i managed to take only one with the housing unscratched lol.

Also, what the best type of solder to use here? In diameter? 0.7mm?

[mbodrov]

I think my problem is that my iron solder has a too sharp point.
It's this one, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j5InYnp-xs.

You are absolutely right.
For a soldering tutorial, I like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5Sb21qbpEQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYz5nIHH0iY
This guy explains about the sharp tip shape too. Note that he insists on getting a soldering station instead of just a soldering iron, but really for something like switch soldering the simple iron will work very well. Just get the tip issue sorted out.

[maxrunner]

Hi there! Yeah the problem is trying to get a new tip for that iron. you can remove the tip but i dont see any other tips specifically for this model... :S