Blocked by Cherry G80-2551 Ebay seller

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Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

23 Apr 2015, 00:47

Glad I didn't use ebay :)

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webwit
Wild Duck

23 Apr 2015, 01:01

They are a bank in the EU due to EU laws.

IanM

23 Apr 2015, 01:12

derzemel wrote: ...Ebay support to as them what I should do. They did not have any solution either to "unblock" me before the bid ends also they dod not see any reason entered on why the selled has blocked me (which seems to be against the rules)...
eBay will not tell you anything even if they know something, in the interests of confidentiality.

I sell a little on eBay, but I always set the maximum blocks against buyers:
  • Have received 2 unpaid item case(s) within 12 month(s)
  • Have a primary delivery address in countries that I don't post to
  • Have 4 policy violation report(s) within 6 month(s)
  • Have a Feedback score equal to or lower than -1
I used to ship EU wide, although the postage costs usually make it non viable these days, but I'm sorry to have to break it to you I would not ship any tech / high risk items to Eastern Europe, or Italy! In Western EU Italy and Germany have the worst reputation for 'lost' parcels, and by 'lost' I mean stolen by the postal service, courier or fraudulently claimed not received by the buyer.

Also, sellers can block any individual for any reason. The seller tools include a block list, you only have to enter the usernames separated by commas. No reason is required and once entered it cannot be undone for some time iirc it's something like 90 days i.e. you can delete a name from the blocked bidders list but that user will still not be able to buy from you for 90 days.

FYI since eBay changed the feedback rules I block as many people as I sell to. I'm not running a business so I have the luxury of choosing who I deal with and am really strict about it. I know I'm not alone in this because I've spent a lot of time on the eBay forums reading advice from experienced sellers. It only takes one arsehole to ruin a selling account.

As frustrating as it is for you I have to side with the seller in this, it has to be caution first. Blame eBay for their ludicrously draconian policies. Look up some discussion of the 'defect' system that now applies to sellers, it's completely insane.

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derzemel

23 Apr 2015, 06:17

IanM wrote: As frustrating as it is for you I have to side with the seller in this, it has to be caution first. Blame eBay for their ludicrously draconian policies. Look up some discussion of the 'defect' system that now applies to sellers, it's completely insane.
Thank you for the explanation!

I also want to thank everybody else who took the time to comment on this thread.

I, as a first time buyer, thought that ebay is something like Amazon (I give you money, you give me item) and the fraud problem from the early 2000's is over.

I also am aware of the "lost parcels" policy that postal office s sometime apply, so I always try to use DHL for delivery when buying online, as they seem to be the safest, even if they are more expensive

In the end, I still got something out of this: this thread has been very educational for me as I have learned a lot about ebay.

Thank you all!!

dzhoou

23 Apr 2015, 17:03

Who cares? He can't block a new account. Just register a new one quickly and bid.

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

23 Apr 2015, 17:54

dzhoou wrote: Who cares? He can't block a new account. Just register a new one quickly and bid.
Who cares? The seller for sure. He would almost certainly refuse to complete the transaction, and rightfully so. You cannot validly trick someone into a contract when they had already made clear they don’t want to do business with you.

Plus, he would almost certainly report you.
Using a second account to place a bid with a seller who has blocked you is a reason for being banned from eBay.
And a good reason, if you ask me.

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derzemel

23 Apr 2015, 18:03

kbdfr wrote:
dzhoou wrote: Who cares? He can't block a new account. Just register a new one quickly and bid.
Who cares? The seller for sure. He would almost certainly refuse to complete the transaction, and rightfully so. You cannot validly trick someone into a contract when they had already made clear they don’t want to do business with you.

Plus, he would almost certainly report you.
Using a second account to place a bid with a seller who has blocked you is a reason for being banned from eBay.
And a good reason, if you ask me.
I agree with kbdfr here.

dzhoou

23 Apr 2015, 18:07

No need to be judgmental here. If what OP said is true, he didn't do anything wrong and he has a proxy in Germany, so why must he adhere to the block? It doesn't make any sense.

Does the seller get to know the person they're dealing with through a few words across feebay? Not at all. They don't even get to see the buyer's account information before they actually buy something. So why these assumptions here?

IanM

23 Apr 2015, 18:13

dzhoou wrote: Who cares? He can't block a new account. Just register a new one quickly and bid.
You are wrong. As policy goes, blocking a user makes it acceptable to reject transactions from all associated users at the physical addresses, IPs, PayPal accounts, email, credit/debit cards etc. If this doesn't happen automatically the seller is protected anyway, the eBay policies are quite clear that buyers attempting to circumvent blocks is not allowed. The seller is allowed to cancel the transaction with no penalty, the buyer and any friend or proxies they use would face account sanctions including account ban for malicious bidding.

dzhoou

23 Apr 2015, 18:26

Excuse me? If the buyer's intent is no other than bidding and buying, it's ebay and the seller that's being malicious here, not the buyer.

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

23 Apr 2015, 18:28

dzhoou wrote: […] he didn't do anything wrong and he has a proxy in Germany,
Indeed, he didn’t do anything wrong - and was blocked. Whether someone else will receive the item and transfer it to him is of no interest to the seller who doesn’t want to enter a contract with him. The only acceptable method would be a "real" proxy, i.e. someone else buying in their own name.
so why must he adhere to the block? It doesn't make any sense.
It does make sense. Would you want to be forced into a contract when you explicitely refused to?
Does the seller get to know the person they're dealing with through a few words across feebay? Not at all. They don't even get to see the buyer's account information before they actually buy something. So why these assumptions here?
In this case derzemel hat already contacted him.

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

23 Apr 2015, 18:30

dzhoou wrote: Excuse me? If the buyer's intent is no other than bidding and buying, it's ebay and the seller that's being malicious here, not the buyer.
Here again:
Would you want to be forced into a contract when you explicitely refused to?

dzhoou

23 Apr 2015, 18:32

kbdfr wrote:
dzhoou wrote: Excuse me? If the buyer's intent is no other than bidding and buying, it's ebay and the seller that's being malicious here, not the buyer.
Here again:
Would you want to be forced into a contract when you explicitely refused to?
Would you want to be forced out of a contract when you didn't do anything wrong?

Isn't it the point of this entire thread?

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

23 Apr 2015, 18:39

Sigh…
Let’s legalese a bit: the essence of a contract is that it is voluntarily concluded by the parties to it.
Nobody is "forced out" of a contract - there simply is no contract if one of the prospective parties decides against it.

IanM

23 Apr 2015, 18:45

dzhoou wrote: Would you want to be forced out of a contract when you didn't do anything wrong?

Isn't it the point of this entire thread?
There is no contract until both parties agree. Sellers have no moral or legal obligation to deal with anyone they don't want to.

The only reasonable response for the buyer is to accept the situation with good grace and move on.

I would not advise buyers to involve friends or family as proxies either, if the seller can show any link between the proxy and originally blocked individual the result may be sanctions. Why would you want to risk the account of a friend or family member just because you can't accept no for an answer?

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

23 Apr 2015, 18:51

Tomorrow I’ll go to my bank and lend me money from them.
After all, I never did anything wrong with my bank account.

I had an argument some time ago with the owner of a bike shop.
I’ll go there tomorrow and let him repair my bike. I don’t care if he doesn’t want to.

My neighbour just moved, I’ll have my landlord also rent me that flat.
After all, I always paid my rent on time, so he won’t be allowed to refuse.

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

23 Apr 2015, 19:18

kbdfr wrote:Tomorrow I’ll go to my bank and lend me money from them.
After all, I never did anything wrong with my bank account.

I had an argument some time ago with the owner of a bike shop.
I’ll go there tomorrow and let him repair my bike. I don’t care if he doesn’t want to.

My neighbour just moved, I’ll have my landlord also rent me that flat.
After all, I always paid my rent on time, so he won’t be allowed to refuse.
Haha nice kbdfr... but that's not how your life works out! Or anyone's life for that matter. I know what your trying to tell us.

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chzel

23 Apr 2015, 19:24

seebart wrote: ..Or anyone's life for that matter...
Mine does, I'm pretty bad-ass!
:mrgreen:

Kidding aside, life as an ebay seller must be hard enough as it is, don't make it even harder!
(Never sold anything on ebay, but everything seems buyer-centric)

robo

23 Apr 2015, 23:13

Definitely sounds like derzemel got 'profiled'. It sucks, but my experience as a sometime eBay seller is that you get a bit paranoid about buyers, partly because there *are* a lot of scammers (and many of them *are* from Eastern Europe), and eBay and PayPal seem to side with buyers whenever there is a dispute. So you get a very low threshold for cutting someone off, especially for an item that is in high demand.

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metalliqaz

24 Apr 2015, 05:26

Just make a new account

davkol

24 Apr 2015, 17:15

IanM wrote: Sellers have no moral or legal obligation to deal with anyone they don't want to.
Good job excusing discrimination. *slow clap*

IanM

24 Apr 2015, 20:40

davkol wrote: Good job excusing discrimination. *slow clap*
You can be sarcastic if you want, but you just prove that you haven't understood the whole issue.

In the case of the OP the seller does not ship across borders, that is 100% acceptable. The seller does not want to trust someone who attempts to get around this by using a proxy, also 100% acceptable. Even more than acceptable, it's best practice and good advice since sellers can lose their (very little) seller protection easily.

Any buyer that suddenly has different country's address is suspicious regardless of nationality and the seller is correct to assume that it won't be verified and therefore not safe to ship to. The OP being in Romania is coincidental, I'll bet the seller would've blocked him just the same if he was from France or Holland, I know I would.

As well as the global blocks I set (see post above) I've blocked dozens of people on ebay by their individual username, not one of them because of bigotry. Every single individual block is personal, because of messages they've sent, rudeness, invitations to do the trade off ebay, stupid low offers they make, or discovering unacceptable previous behaviour from their buying history and talking to other sellers about them.

It's simple, all sellers are advised at the first hint of trouble or suspicion, immediately block.

davkol

24 Apr 2015, 21:13

Let me remind you of what you posted.
IanM wrote: There is no contract until both parties agree. Sellers have no moral or legal obligation to deal with anyone they don't want to.
If they don't want to deal with someone on the basis of their ethnicity, you name it… well, that's illegal in some countries, and generally considered immoral in this part of the world, unless you're present mostly in circles that tend to walk around in white caps, burn witches and beat black slaves.

Zero feedback is a fair reason to turn down an offer.
Nationality is not, and this is about Germany with lots of gastarbeiters (who certainly haven't been confronted with discrimination /s).
Absence of reasoning? What's fair about that?

IanM

24 Apr 2015, 22:17

davkol wrote: Let me remind you of what you posted.
I responded to the wider question that sellers must deal with anyone, it was you that reduced it to the narrower issue of racial discrimination.
davkol wrote: If they don't want to deal with someone on the basis of their ethnicity
Sure, sellers are idiots if they turn away good business for bigotry, however there is no evidence to assume that is the reason here. I think I'm flogging a dead horse but: we're talking about ebay and paypal. You have to accept that there is so much incentive for sellers to be very mistrustful and excessively cautious.
davkol wrote: that's illegal in some countries
I think those laws don't apply to private individuals or private clubs. The laws usually apply to businesses, institutions and government departments etc that serve the public. I'm not sure how it would be interpreted for a private seller on ebay, it might vary from country to country, but even if the law does apply there are so many legitimate and morally right reasons to refuse service you would have an impossible task proving anything.
davkol wrote: Absence of reasoning? What's fair about that?
It is what it is, it doesn't have to be 'fair.' The seller isn't obliged to explain why they don't want to enter into a contract. If I reject an offer and then block someone I won't enter into a discussion about it for any reason. When I am the seller, it's my risk and my decision is final.

davkol

24 Apr 2015, 23:22

To reiterate dzhoou's question: Would you want to be forced out of a contract when you didn't do anything wrong?

Speaking of this particular case, I'm either missing something (or OP hasn't shared the whole story), or OP actually didn't do anything wrong. First, he asked, if the seller ships to Romania, when it supposedly wasn't specified in the listing. The seller denied that. So far so good. However, if he denied shipping within Germany and blocked OP, that was kinda rude, esp. if the #1 issue was the lack of feedback on OP's account. I wouldn't say a word, if he actually used only the feedback reasoning. Lack of transparency!

If eBay is such a bad place to do business, then don't use eBay.

Economic discrimination against customers is a thing and it's regulated—in theory. In practice, it's difficult to detect and prove.

IanM

25 Apr 2015, 00:19

davkol wrote: ...First, he asked, if the seller ships to Romania, when it supposedly wasn't specified in the listing. The seller denied that. So far so good. However, if he denied shipping within Germany and blocked OP, that was kinda rude...
OK, so follow this through:
  • The seller now knows with certainty that derzemel is in Romania (I say the country is irrelevant, it only matters that he is not in Germany.)
  • derzemel changes his address to circumvent the (legitimate) terms of the sale i.e. shipping must be within Germany, and places a bid.
  • The seller still knows that derzemel is in Romania, but the seller has no proof or reason to believe that the German address now added to derzemel's account is real. It could be plucked from Google Maps at random.
  • It is very well known that buyers pull crap like this all the time on eBay i.e. try to dictate terms to sellers. The seller may now reasonably expect that if derzemel wins the auction, he will pay immediately and only then demand shipping to his real address in Romania.
  • With hours/minutes remaining the seller faces a choice: i) cancel the bid immediately ii) accept being railroaded into shipping to another country if derzemel wins iii) hope that the mysterious new address in Germany is legitimate and not being used for a deception iv) cancel the transaction after auction finishes, apply for a refund of ebay fees + accept the paypal fee for refunding and re-list the item later.
Option iv is unacceptable: the seller loses a good sale that would've been to the second place bidder within Germany. It is highly likely that re running the auction will result in a much lower final price - all the other potential buyers are now put off because clearly there was a problem before, many of them won't bid anything on a re-list. To add insult to the injury the seller always pays the paypal transaction fee for doing a refund (it isn't fair, but that's paypal.)

Option iii is unacceptable because of the stress caused, the risk and uncertainty it places on the seller (even if there is no fraud)

Option ii is unacceptable because the buyer doing this type of thing is a disrespectful cunt and nobody should have to deal with that kind of behaviour.

Option i is the only sane thing for the seller to do.

The seller is not influenced at all by ethnicity in this scenario.
Last edited by IanM on 25 Apr 2015, 01:14, edited 1 time in total.

robo

25 Apr 2015, 00:38

Nationality is used to discriminate all the time. Try showing up to the US border with a Chinese password, vs a Japanese or UK one... Guess who is getting in?

Not saying it's right.

davkol

25 Apr 2015, 02:14

IanM wrote: derzemel changes his address to circumvent the (legitimate) terms of the sale i.e. shipping must be within Germany, and places a bid.
A proxy! The horror!

…and if it's still in the same city, there's certainly no way anyone could ever possibly show up in person.
IanM wrote: The seller is not influenced at all by ethnicity in this scenario.
The seller is still an asshole, who doesn't provide any explanation whatsoever, unless omitted by OP.

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webwit
Wild Duck

25 Apr 2015, 04:22

Sexist! :x Racist! I blame eBay.

For Japanese webshops, we're all Romanians. :idea:

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

25 Apr 2015, 08:04

I have invited the eBay seller to take part in the discussion.

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