Is a KUL ES-87 a good first time keyboard?

[Benevolence]

I come from a background of using rubber domes and I think Alps without knowing it a while back, I've been scouring the internet since April, looking for the perfect keyboard for my price range ($140 is the stretch, it isn't going any further) I want something tenkeyless for ergonomics, and mechanical. I've stumbled across the KUL ES-87 and have dropped all of my plans for buying a CM Storm QuickFire Rapid... I have not had the chance to try any Cherry switch except for the Reds, which were a bit too light and felt too... Smooth? Not sure if that is the right word. I've been looking at the Cherry MX Clears as my first switch, because one, it is a switch that not many people (from what I've heard) get to try right away, and two, I like the idea of alot of tactility but the actuation point is 65g... I'm not sure how much that is but I'd assume it is over the actuation point of this (rather shitty) iMicro keyboard I am currently using. Any thoughts? Recommendations?

[Findecanor]

I learned to type on the Clears without bottoming out so often, and if you type that way then the keys don't feel too hard.
Many rubber domes are often around 65g, which you would need to bash to the bottom to actuate.

It is not really the force at the actuation point that determines how hard a key is, but force × travel, I.e. the area under the force/travel graph before you release the key. If you would press MX Clears to the bottom then they would feel very stiff.

[Benevolence]

That is actually a reason I want clears, because of the fact that I would benefit from not bottoming them out, is it hard to learn not to or is it rather easy on Clears? If I'm not mistaken the Clear is sort of a harder opposite to a brown isn't it? Where on a Brown there is something to sort of push through and on a clear there is that tactility there but the further down you push it the harder it is?

[Mal-2]

Many rubber domes are often around 65g, which you would need to bash to the bottom to actuate.

I don't know what boards those might be, do you have examples? Every rubber dome I've used has either been really light and activated at or very close to the bottom (just about all the cheap ones), or moderately heavy (say, 50 to 60g at activation) but don't have to come close to bottoming out because activation is about 2/3 of the way down (Cherry G86, it appears the matrixed boards are a bit heavier than the staggered ones).

[Benevolence]

Just how light are browns compared to say a conventional rubber dome? I don't think I want browns but I just want to make sure, are the clears really tiring to type on?

[Khers]

If you actively try to bottom out the keystroke, stock clears are pretty tiresome to type on. If you don't they aren't. The force curve approaches a singularity at the bottom of the travel, or so it feels. The switch will teach you not to bottom out.

[seebart]

I come from a background of using rubber domes and I think Alps without knowing it... Any thoughts? Recommendations?

Consciously go back to Alps and forget about the Kul for now.

[Muirium]

I'll say. A nice, good condition, vintage Alps board with damped switches (cream is a solid choice) has a smooth finesse no KUL could match. And would cost a lot less besides!

[Benevolence]

Problem with alot of vintage boards is the amount of space they take up... I barely have less than an inch of space left on my tray where my current keyboard is... And I won't put my mouse back on top of my desk instead of on my tray. Very uncomfortable.

[SL89]

Yes It's as decent start. Don't let the curmudgeons tell you otherwise. Vintage is great but the KUL (and the WASD Code) are both made by the OEM Costar iirc.

[Benevolence]

Yeah, it isn't as if I haven't considered vintage, I've been searching around for a few months. I know as much as I can without actually trying something myself. I won't be making my purchase until July.

[Benevolence]

Anyone have any experience with the Poker 2? That programmable layer is badass and those keycaps...

[Muirium]

Ahem, curmudgeon speaking! The Poker 2 is pretty good. It's a board I do recommend for newbs, especially those keen to try out the 60% experience. You have noticed it doesn't have traditional arrow keys, right? You've got to master layers. It's a great way to learn all that. Pokers are better priced than costly KULs, too.

I can't hold back my curmudgeonly insight though: the caps may be PBT but they're horrible! Do yourself a favour and budget for a nice set.

http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/round ... 10938.html

I don't have a Poker but plenty of people here do. They're generally well regarded. I went straight up to the HHKB instead.

[Benevolence]

I've just been looking around, actually the KUL and the Poker 2 right now are at similar price points. Ya I realized that there are no arrow keys and just now thought of how much I actually use those keys... I'm probably better off with a tenkeyless and not a 60%.

[wlhlm]

If you go the Poker direction, I recommend you check out the Pok3r as it comes in at the same price point as the Poker II, I think, but has that metal case and an improved Fn layer, namely the arrow keys.

[Muirium]

Yeah, beware the lure of metal cases. A lot of Poker owners buy a metal case to upgrade later on.

But sure, if you're not determined to leap to 60%, then go TKL. Sixty is a challenge. You must be up for it.

Hopefully the KUL is as well made as a Code keyboard. I tried one of those (without knowing what it was until I flipped it over) in person a few months ago at HaaTa's big keyboard meet. Impressively solid. More so than a Model M. Just not metal!

[SL89]

I have 2 Codes, can confirm solidity.

[maxmalkav]

It is not my intention to hijack the thread, but I am also considering getting a KUL with MX Clears and I would like to get some feedback from people that have tested it (or as similar board). Basically I am not sure if I will like MX Clear switches (I think so) or not, I will try to explain myself

I have used both MX Blue and MX Brown switches. I have to say that like MX Brown switches when they are plate mounted, I like the sound, tactility and force required (I found them light). Even though, I have tried a couple of G80-11800 (the Compaq ones, with an integrated trackball) with MX Brown, those boards were PCB mounted and I always found the switches kind of "mushy" compared to the plate mounted ones. Conclusion: I like MX Brown switches only when they are plate mounted.

Currently I would like to move to MX Clear in order to use a stiffer/harder version of MX Brown, but I have only tried MX Clears on two different Cherry G80-3000 keyboards, which were PCB mounted ones and I did not like them too much. As well as the G80-11800, I found them kind of "mushy".

Regarding my experience, I have the feeling I may like MX Clear switches if they are plate mounted. I would like to know if you consider that a MX Clear plate mounted switch feels like a "right" stiffer version of a plate mounted MX Brown one. I am looking for the same kind of tactility but demanding more force.

Also I have to say due my typing style I usually bottom out (not in an incredibly strong way) and I'm totally fine with that

[SL89]

hey maxmalkav. I know exactly what you described. Clears are indeed a bit stiffer and have additional tactility. (The 'bump' is slightly more pronounced. I too prefer plate mounts, and can say from experience, that the combination of plate mounts and clears gives a very solid feel. Like you, I bottom out a lot (even on greens and clears) and my Clear equipped code CODE is very comfortable to type on. If you like Blues and Brown but think they are light then Clears are a good choice. Also, while you are at it, give Greens a try. I enjoy them immensely.

[zts]

It is not my intention to hijack the thread, but I am also considering getting a KUL with MX Clears and I would like to get some feedback from people that have tested it (or as similar board). Basically I am not sure if I will like MX Clear switches (I think so) or not, I will try to explain myself

I have used both MX Blue and MX Brown switches. I have to say that like MX Brown switches when they are plate mounted, I like the sound, tactility and force required (I found them light). ...

It appears that moving to MX clears would be the right choice for you if the primary reason is to get "heavier" MX browns. Personally, I get easily tired with the clears, most likely because I don't stick with them long enough to learn not to bottom out -- for that reason I prefer the greens (heavier blues). Anyways, try and see. Both, WASD/Code and KUL (in addition to Deck and Max), are the best and sturdiest American-designed-made-elsewhere modern keyboards you can find. They are also fairly expensive. The only concern I have is that with the heavier MX switches you may experience moderate to excessive metallic pinging/resonance (both KUL and WASD/Code users reported this). Absolutely no problems with the browns, blues, reds. Good luck!

[Benevolence]

If you go the Poker direction, I recommend you check out the Pok3r as it comes in at the same price point as the Poker II, I think, but has that metal case and an improved Fn layer, namely the arrow keys.

Ah I wasn't aware that this existed, and you're right about it being the same price range, if I go with a Poker it'll be the Pok3r

[SL89]

The only concern I have is that with the heavier MX switches you may experience moderate to excessive metallic pinging/resonance (both KUL and WASD/Code users reported this). Absolutely no problems with the browns, blues, reds. Good luck!

McRip effect.

[maxmalkav]

Thanks a lot SL89 and zts, your comments help me a lot (but they won't help my wallet, I fear

Regarding clicky switches, I think I prefer Mx Blues when PCB mounted (oh the irony!) because I feel them "softer" while been crispy, I guess the PCB damped the sound in a nice way. I love the feel of the G80-3000 with MX Blue while my CM QFR feels "too clicky", the switches feel a bit dry even after months of usage and the echo over the plate is almost too loud.

@Benevolence, I stop hijacking your thread

[Benevolence]

@Benevolence, I stop hijacking your thread

Lol maxmalkav it's fine. Anywho I don't think I'm gonna go with Pok3r, I think I want a lighter switch as well... MX Browns maybe, I've realized recently that when I'm typing fast my typing seems to also get lighter...

[Muirium]

I wonder what Maxmalkav thought about those Montereys he kindly proxied for a few of us last year. Now those are clicky switches done right! Smooth, light and snappy. I wish MX blues were so good.