deskthority

Any interest for Alps clones?
The attitude towards Alps now reminds me back when everyone wanted only "genuine" Cherry switches.

With both cherry and Alps, the genuine option is usually the way to go. Clones never live up the the same standards

samuelcable wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 19:34

With both cherry and Alps, the genuine option is usually the way to go. Clones never live up the the same standards

Alps is long-out of production. If you want a similar switch, support the clones.

You seem to be confusing "out of production" with "not widely available."

I am curious, though, do you prefer clones to the real deal? One thing to keep in mind is that all alps clones are clones of the later "simplified" alps switch design. Most enthusiasts will agree that even "genuine" simplified alps don't stack up well against their earlier "complicated" brethren.

//gainsborough wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 20:12

You seem to be confusing "out of production" with "not widely available."

I am curious, though, do you prefer clones to the real deal? One thing to keep in mind is that all alps clones are clones of the later "simplified" alps switch design. Most enthusiasts will agree that even "genuine" simplified alps don't stack up well against their earlier "complicated" brethren.

Alps have not made keyboard switches in decades. Forward bought the simplified tooling and only made them until 2012.

"Complicated" refers to the contact mechanism, not the tactile leaf and housing. Besides, anything with a click leaf is better than a click jacket.

Plus, if people participated in Alps clone group buys, then we could commission a custom switch that replicates Alps SKCM's keyfeel, like Zealpc's customized Cherry clone switches.

have you actually tried the switches you want to replicate ?

abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 20:24

Alps have not made keyboard switches in decades.

You're killin' me, abraham. I'm aware they stopped making switches - my point is that you can still find them pretty easily. Now, if you want to argue price discrepancies, then you may actually have an argument!

Myoth wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 20:26

have you actually tried the switches you want to replicate ?

Yes, I have tried White Alps. I do prefer the stronger tactility of the Hua-Jies anyway, even at the cost of a little wobble.

//gainsborough wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 20:29

abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 20:24

Alps have not made keyboard switches in decades.

You're killin' me, abraham. I'm aware they stopped making switches - my point is that you can still find them pretty easily. Now, if you want to argue price discrepancies, then you may actually have an argument!

You can still find SKBM Whites for fairly cheap, but what happens when the supply runs out?

stop thinking about the supply running out, get some SKCM Whites, they're as common as coins on a street

abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 20:32

You can still find SKBM Whites for fairly cheap, but what happens when the supply runs out?

I wholeheartedly believe that the number of alps keyboards floating around in the wild far outnumbers the number of keyboard enthusiasts. A buddy of mine found an almost mint condition Zenith Z-150 at a yard-sale-type thing for 84 cents just last week.

I'm not disagreeing that supply will run out at some point - I just think we are many years away.

The whole point is that Alps SHOULDN'T be just for a few elitists.... they should be on everyone's desks.

but hobbyists ARE elitists !! so a niche inside a niche isn't something uncommon

samuelcable wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 19:34

With both cherry and Alps, the genuine option is usually the way to go. Clones never live up the the same standards

With Alps, I tend to agree that vintage genuine may be better than contemporary clones as long as the vintage genuine switches are in excellent condition.

However, with Cherry, are you referring to vintage Cherry or contemporary Cherry? In my experience, although I generally do not like Cherry mx or clones, vintage Cherry blacks are better than contemporary Cherry blacks, but among all other genuine Cherry variants, I have found clones that I like better. Moreover, in some cases, there are clone variants that do not yet exist among genuine contemporary Cherry types. A case in point is the Zilent switch -- a silenced tactile switch that I actually like.

Hypersphere wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 21:03

samuelcable wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 19:34

With both cherry and Alps, the genuine option is usually the way to go. Clones never live up the the same standards

With Alps, I tend to agree that vintage genuine may be better than contemporary clones as long as the vintage genuine switches are in excellent condition.

However, with Cherry, are you referring to vintage Cherry or contemporary Cherry? In my experience, although I generally do not like Cherry mx or clones, vintage Cherry blacks are better than contemporary Cherry blacks, but among all other genuine Cherry variants, I have found clones that I like better. Moreover, in some cases, there are clone variants that do not yet exist among genuine contemporary Cherry types. A case in point is the Zilent switch -- a silenced tactile switch that I actually like.

Sorry, I meant retooled and vintage switches, pre-retool are worse than some clones but from a long term use standpoint I'd rather use genuine than a clone.

@abrahamstechnology (or anyone):

What's the verdict on the Tai-Hao XM switches being sold by Mechanicalkeyboards.com?

And what about the Tai-Hao APC blue or white switches being sold by Tai-Hao directly or through outlets such as AliExpress?

Today, I received a test batch of Tai-Hao APC blue switches. It's difficult to tell much from playing with loose switches (not mounted in a keyboard), but they don't seem bad. They feel very light, yet noticeably tactile. They are also clicky, but they are much quieter than any other clicky Alps or clicky Alps clone I have tried.

If the XM or APC switches were any good, they have the advantage of apparently being still in production and readily available at somewhat reasonable prices.

Hypersphere wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 21:20

And what about the Tai-Hao APC blue or white switches being sold by Tai-Hao directly or through outlets such as AliExpress?

I bought a small pack of APC blue switches from aliexpress and used them to replace iffy switches on old SKCM boards. The sliders feel smooth and the actuation seems reliable, but the narrow (copper?) click leaf has a tendency to get stuck somehow and not click.

I have a Macally MK96 with 4-tab clones like wiki/Alps.tw_Type_T1 and the click leaf in those seems reliable in comparison. I suppose I should try a swap!

swampangel wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 21:43

Hypersphere wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 21:20

And what about the Tai-Hao APC blue or white switches being sold by Tai-Hao directly or through outlets such as AliExpress?

I bought a small pack of APC blue switches from aliexpress and used them to replace iffy switches on old SKCM boards. The sliders feel smooth and the actuation seems reliable, but the narrow (copper?) click leaf has a tendency to get stuck somehow and not click.

I have a Macally MK96 with 4-tab clones like wiki/Alps.tw_Type_T1 and the click leaf in those seems reliable in comparison. I suppose I should try a swap!

Do you happen to know how the Tai-Hao XM switches compare with the Alps.tw Type T1 switches?

swampangel wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 21:43

Hypersphere wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 21:20

And what about the Tai-Hao APC blue or white switches being sold by Tai-Hao directly or through outlets such as AliExpress?

I bought a small pack of APC blue switches from aliexpress and used them to replace iffy switches on old SKCM boards. The sliders feel smooth and the actuation seems reliable, but the narrow (copper?) click leaf has a tendency to get stuck somehow and not click.

I have a Macally MK96 with 4-tab clones like wiki/Alps.tw_Type_T1 and the click leaf in those seems reliable in comparison. I suppose I should try a swap!

Actually, I'm currently running a group buy for T1s, also known as Hua-Jie AK-CN2. (It's 99% certain that AK-CN2 is T1)

The sample of APCs has the "only clicking sometimes" problem that many others have mentioned while clicking them. The Hua-Jies on the other hand seem pretty solid with the click.

Hypersphere wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 21:20

@abrahamstechnology (or anyone):

What's the verdict on the Tai-Hao XM switches being sold by Mechanicalkeyboards.com?

I think those are just APC series switches, mechanicalkeyboards.com seems pretty terrible with organization.

Myoth wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 20:34

get some SKCM Whites, they're as common as coins on a street

In a mirror universe perhaps?

Hypersphere wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 21:51

Do you happen to know how the Tai-Hao XM switches compare with the Alps.tw Type T1 switches?

I don't know much of anything about the XMs

abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 22:28

Myoth wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 20:34

get some SKCM Whites, they're as common as coins on a street

In a mirror universe perhaps?

no ? they're literally the most common Alps switch (or on par with the dampened bros), and that's saying a lot ...

Myoth wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 22:32

abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 22:28

Myoth wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 20:34

get some SKCM Whites, they're as common as coins on a street

In a mirror universe perhaps?

no ? they're literally the most common Alps switch (or on par with the dampened bros), and that's saying a lot ...

All I see everywhere is shined up rubber domes...

In fact I have gone to my local thrift shops every week religiously, for nearly a year, and the closest thing I have ever found to a mechanical was a poor condition NMB rubber dome Apple Design keyboard.

abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 22:39

In fact I have gone to my local thrift shops every week religiously, for nearly a year,

I have been in outside sales for quite a long time (until recently). Having a few minutes to spare between appointments has allowed me to drop in on almost every thrift store in the North Metro Atlanta area, some fairly often, some perhaps only once or twice a year. That includes many dozens of stores, with perhaps a dozen or so in my more immediate area. I always assumed that Mondays might be best since people often clean house on the weekends, but that is not necessarily true.

My success rate has been very low compared to some claims made by luckier people, but 5-10 years ago there were still moderate numbers of AT101s and Apple Extendeds and Extended 2s out there, along with the occasional odd SMK or NMB (and, only a couple of times, a Model M, Focus, or Northgate). Almost all of my keyboards came from 10%-20% of the stores.

That has all dried up in recent years, I have not gotten anything good at all in at least 2-3 years, which I attribute mostly to sorters now probably eliminating anything that is not USB.

abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 20:55

The whole point is that Alps SHOULDN'T be just for a few elitists.... they should be on everyone's desks.

But then your target audience isn't us, it's the general populous. Marketing alps clones here is gonna always be met with the "elitist" attitude - even though I think it's more objective than elitist to think that genuine complicated alps are going to be an overall better experience than clones - but that's like, my opinion, man.

Yeah, that's pretty sad. The only way to make people appreciate Alps is to get them back into production and make them use them again.

//gainsborough wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 23:58

abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 20:55

The whole point is that Alps SHOULDN'T be just for a few elitists.... they should be on everyone's desks.

But then your target audience isn't us, it's the general populous. Marketing alps clones here is gonna always be met with the "elitist" attitude - even though I think it's more objective than elitist to think that genuine complicated alps are going to be an overall better experience than clones - but that's like, my opinion, man.

But pandas, Zealios, etc. are clones off another switch and came from the elitist community too...

abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 22:39

All I see everywhere is shined up rubber domes...

In fact I have gone to my local thrift shops every week religiously, for nearly a year, and the closest thing I have ever found to a mechanical was a poor condition NMB rubber dome Apple Design keyboard.

Go to eBay and type in "AT101W," "m0115," "m0116" or "alps keyboard" - you're just not looking in the right place!

abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2019, 00:00

But pandas, Zealios, etc. are clones off another switch and came from the elitist community too...

That's true, but consider that MX still produces switches - so it's not really the same. I would say those examples are more of "let's see if we can take the tooling of MX and combine it with something else to make it better." - or something to that effect. They are trying to change MX, not reproduce it.

//gainsborough wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2019, 00:03

abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑

04 Feb 2019, 22:39

All I see everywhere is shined up rubber domes...

In fact I have gone to my local thrift shops every week religiously, for nearly a year, and the closest thing I have ever found to a mechanical was a poor condition NMB rubber dome Apple Design keyboard.

Go to eBay and type in "AT101W," "m0115," "m0116" or "alps keyboard" - you're just not looking in the right place!

abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑

05 Feb 2019, 00:00

But pandas, Zealios, etc. are clones off another switch and came from the elitist community too...

That's true, but consider that MX still produces switches - so it's not really the same. I would say those examples are more of "let's see if we can take the tooling of MX and combine it with something else to make it better." - or something to that effect. They are trying to change MX, not reproduce it.

Then it makes sense to go with a class of switches that worked great in the first place.