Mech Noob Ergo/RSI advise.

[tj82]

Hi guys, I’m after some advice and this seems like a great place to ask, sorry some of this may be a little basic but I’m keen to get advice before buying anything.

Bit of back story: feel free to skip ahead…

About 15 years ago, I fell playing football and sprained my wrist. The pain continued for weeks, until I changed from using my laptop’s keyboard to an external Microsoft wireless split keyboard.
After a few months I migrated to a Microsoft Comfort curve 2000 which I preferred due to the more normal layout, but it still helped keep my wrists relaxed. These have been my daily driver for the best part of 15 years both at home and work until a few months ago when I bought a second hand Unicomp Model M, and caught the bug.. (DAMN IT!).
The Unicomp lasted 15 minutes, but turned out to be too noisy for my colleagues so has been relegated to home, where it’s been used very lightly in the evenings.

Having caught the bug I looked for an affordable mechanical keyboard for work and ended up with the Logitech G610 with MX browns and fitted orings to quieten it further…

However, having spent and evening racing on typeracer comparing the unicomp and 610 followed by a day in the office my RSI came back with vengeance by about 3pm and I’m stuck with the realisation that I probably can’t work 9-5 on a traditional keyboard. This seems to severally limit my mechanical keyed options and pushes the price up significantly from the research I’ve done so far, hence why I want advise before investing.

Question 1) Has anyone who’s suffered from RSI found an improvement moving from a full keyboard to a 10 keyless mechanical ?
If so, a cherry clone Drevo 84 could be an option to try this out. It’s cheap readily available in uk.

However assuming I do need to go split, I seem to have only a few choices inside my budget and design requirements.
1) ISO layout. I can’t get used to @ and “ and # being in the ‘wrong’ place…
2) I need direction arrows.
3) I prefer tactile switches.
4) Must be moderately quiet. (no bucking springs or clicky unfortunately)
5) I can’t justify over £200 (yet….)
I’m really struggling to spend up to £150, but if I know it’s the right board and it’ll last me 5 years + then I will commit.
6) I’m UK based. (and impatient)

Self Build
One option seems to be to build my own, which is something I’m quite interested in, but I need something now and can’t wait for parts or build times. So this may be an option in the future but isn’t an immediate fix.
The ErgoDox type clone builds look really interesting and is probably what I’d aim for but maybe with a nav cluster.

Wanting something quickly due to ongoing RSI my top shopping list item is:
Matias Ergo Pro – seems like the leader to me at the moment. It’s tactile and quiet and split and has arrow keys and UK layout. But it’s a lot of money for something I’ve not tried.

Truly Ergonomic 227 and 209, were US layout, so I ruled them out but that was perhaps a mistake. The 209 with MX Browns would otherwise be close to perfect.
Question 2) How practical is it to remap keys in the OS and get new keycaps? It’s three keys I would stuggle with a lot # @ ”, moving those could open up more keyboard options to me.

Questions 3)
My big concerns is that I’m missing something. Is there anything else I should be looking at?

(I’ve actually considered getting two Drevo 84’s and using one for each hand, as it would still come out at less than ½ the cost of the Matias board. )

Thanks for any advice and for anyone who made it through this essay!
T.

[davkol]

The main question is... how much are you willing (or even eager) to learn a new layout? This may mean both physical layout and keymap.

Ideally, keycap legends shouldn't be any concern, if you 100% touch type. Just set your OS' keymap to whatever you're used to (presumably UK QWERTY) and be done with it.

Next, ISO versus ANSI. Some people may get overzealous, when it comes to this, but the change is rather minor in practice. Consider, that you have to get used to differently spaced Alt keys (or even arrows) on various keyboards, for instance.

At this point, I recommend waiting a few months for a new revision of Matias Ergo Pro or Kinesis Freestyle w/ Cherry MX switches. Alternatively, I'm quite a fan of Goldtouch Adjustable Keyboard (high-quality rubber dome over membrane), which can be relatively cheap second hand.

On a different note, what about a "wide" mod, i.e., shifting symbols on the keyboard, so that you get some extra hand separation? I do that.

Everything else will require much more commitment, due to a grid/columnar layout (thus building a completely new muscle memory) or the need for layers to access arrows, function keys and what not. This includes ErgoDox, daisychained Tipro keypads, etc.

(BTW I don't recommend TECK, because of their poor reputation, that ranges from nearly non-existent support to serious keyboard reliability problems.)

[seebart]

Wanting something quickly due to ongoing RSI my top shopping list item is:
Matias Ergo Pro – seems like the leader to me at the moment. It’s tactile and quiet and split and has arrow keys and UK layout. But it’s a lot of money for something I’ve not tried.

try-f29/matias-ergo-pro-tour-t11093.htm ... rgo%20tour

[tj82]

Thanks Davkol.

Some things to chew on for a few days! Certainly what the key says, won't bother me, I did expect to get some strange issues setting a US layout to UK but it's been many years since I last tried it. From memory finding the \ was my biggest issue at the time, but as you've pointed out, if I’m learning a new layout then perhaps I should not rule out ANSI too quickly. I'll definitely think on that some more!

Are new revisions of Matias Ergo Pro or Kinesis Freestyle thought to be coming?

Freestyle2 - is something I had seen a few days ago, but wrote off due to the ANSI layout or lack of Mech (I think) - that's back for further consideration now pending layout decision, so thank you for the recommendation.

Wide mod is new to me, and requires further reading. presumably this require special remaping to get the OS to shift the keys? Might be a nice idea if it frees up straight boards again!

@Seebart - Thanks for the pointer to this thread - it's a great idea. As a brand new member I'd have to earn my stripes before I'm eligible. That's somewhat in conflict with item 6 (my lack of patience) but perhaps the right move is to get a cheap split domed keyboard to rest my RSI and provide me time to trial and invest properly.

Thank guys, exactly the sort of thing I hoped to get here.
I'll think on my layout assumptions some more.

[davkol]

The wide mod requires remapping indeed. I do it in keyboard firmware, but that's possible mainly because I have a custom keyboard (or a DIY converter, see, e.g., hasu's USB to USB converter). Software remapping has plenty of other advantages, though. Anyway, you can get a lot of inspiration from DreymaR's Big Bag of Tricks. I strongly disagree with him on many topics, but it's inspiring anyway, and it can help you with using standard keyboards.

Other than that, it's really just the matias (I've heard rumors about the new revision) and the upcoming kinesis (it's been teased at Geekhack or here IIRC, you can probably find it with some google-fu). Everything else is rare (esp. Cherry MX5000, IBM M15) or completely non-standard.

[tj82]

Wanted to come back and say thanks again for the help.

I eventually ruled out the wide mod. I work in IT and so I have to move between keyboards from time to time. I suspect re-learning to type with a deliberate hand split could come back to haunt me when I'm not at my standard workstation.

I did a lot of research on the TECK keyboards. Very disappointed to hear about all the poor customer support they had a few years back and blaming cherry for their firmware problems. Did consider still buying one, but have since decided not to as I don't want to reward bad customer support.

Spent a lot of time pricing up building an Ergodox or buying pre-built on ebay but they get expensive very quickly and thumb cluster looks like it may be hard to adapt to. I'd still be tempted but think it's going to cost more than I'm comfortable spending.

So I'm left looking at the
UK Ergo Pro Quiet PC Ergonomic
Or
Mistel Barocco MD600-BUKPLGAA1
http://mechkeyboards.eu were good enough to send me a photo to confirm it is ISO layout despite their pics all showing the US layout.

I'm leaning towards the Barocco due to the layers feature and the Cherry brown switches which leaves me options to tinker in the future.

I think i need to try the Matias so I'll try and get on the keyboard tour and see if i can learn to love their keys.

Thanks again for all the help and thoughts.

T.

[davkol]

ad wide mod:
I dare say it's very cheap.

You can swap the J and K keys (i.e., the pair with and without a homing bar/scoop) on your own keyboard, and if you always orient yourself using the homing index-finger keys, you'll still be able to type on unmodified keyboards, except with less comfort.

The only problem is a significantly different position of a few special symbols; you'd have to figure out how often you actually need them (if often, I recommend placing them on the home row as chords with AltGr, and keeping separate muscle memories for your own and other keyboards).

If you get either fully split keyboard (which is something I do recommend, though), you'll have to get used to different positions of special keys (Esc, split spacebar, nav cluster, arrows, perhaps modifiers or Fx keys) regardless.

BTW there are portable keymap options too, ranging from PKL or config files on software side of things, to hasu's USB-to-USB converter on the hardware side.

[fruitalgorithm]

Out the keyboards listed only the Matias Ergo Pro is adjustable for tilting and tenting. The Truly Ergonomic Mechanical Keyboard's reliability has improved with the 227 and 229 models. The 209 has the most problems. Still customer service remains an issue with it.

The Mistel Barocco has no separate arrow cluster.

Matias Ergo Pro is the only one that fits all your requirements, just the price is slightly higher at £186. http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/uk-e ... yboard.asp But you already know that.
All the other ergonomic keyboards will not cost a lot less or compromise on your other requirements.

One thing to keep in mind if you're coming from one of the Microsoft boards is that the Matias Ergo Pro is thicker. So you will need to adjust your table and or chair for optimal positioning.

Your only other alternatives are Diverge https://unikeyboard.io/product/diverge/ and ErgoDox. But that will be more expensive, and you will need to learn a new layout.

[hoggy]

Have you considered using the mouse with your other hand. It's a pretty cheap change, takes a while to get used to it, but it could give you some flexibility if your symptoms change in the future.

I'd suggested trying as many boards as you can, which might not be easy. The more the change, the easier you'll find it to change, a bit like driving only one car for a few years, it can make the next car a strange experience. You mentioned your budget, but think about hiring a Maltron for a month. The boards mentioned already are worth a look (but not the teck). There's also the kinesis advantage, mine saved my programming career about seven years ago. I swapped to dvorak - it was a painful process to swap but it's far more comfortable to type now it's become normal.

Have you seen your doctor or a physio? I've found biofreeze gel good for numbing pain in the forearms. Are you taking rest breaks, and getting out of the office at lunchtime?

Since you work in IT, have you considered using macros & / or text expansion software? When my symptoms were bad, I started to think to about organising my work to minimise keystrokes as I could manage to type about 3000-4000 presses a day, and the last 500 would typed by jabbing at the keyboard with a pencil gripped in my fist. Just sitting back and thinking about what to type was a great productivity boost.

You might be able to acheive Davkol's wide mod with Autohotkey (first time I've come across it, it's a good idea).

[belowgeek]

I think it is not too much about the layout but more on how you place your hands on the keyboard. I've been using the standard layout keyboard my entire life and although there were times that my wrists hurt, it isn't too big of a problem because I always make it a point to properly position my hands.

But, back to your point, the only major difference between a TKL and a standard keyboard is the inclusion of the numpad. I don't feel any major difference in terms of the hand placement between a TKL and a standard keyboard at all.

There are some keyboards that have better ergonomics and can truly help you place your hands much better to prevent RSI, but those keyboards are pretty rare. You have to learn how to adapt your hands on the standard keyboard layout.

[fruitalgorithm]

It's true there's a lot more to ergonomics than just the keyboard layout. A standing desk or a downward angled keyboard tray are options worth exploring. Sitting at the correct height and a desk and monitor at the correct height are essential. As are stretching exercises before and after typing, and taking breaks.

I actually did several of these once I started having problems. Height adjustable desk, which I use for standing for most of the day. A vertical mouse, a trackball, and a desktop touchpad. I switch around using them to avoid repetitive motions somewhat. Placing a trackball in the middle of a split keyboard allows you to use both hands.

Don't skimp on the money. Your health is essential.

If you just don't have the money start with a Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic. It's not a mech, but it's one of the few ergonomic boards that's designed well.

If you work in IT your employer will probably pay for it.

[Darkshado]

I'll second the MS Sculpt Ergo, it's my current work board and it's a decent scissor-over-membrane keyboard. With perhaps the exception of the F keys, that really should have been done like the rest instead of the small-ish, ultra-low travel one they put there.

If you get the kit with the mouse included, skip MS's mouse driver and use Autohotkey instead. Using this I've configured the mouse's right Windows key to send CTRL-W, and the scroll-wheel sides CTRL+TAB and CTRL+SHIFT+TAB respectively.

Depending what causes you problems, a TKL alone might already be leaps and bounds better than a full width keyboard. Another thing I have yet to try is to put a mouse or a trackball on the left side of the keyboard, placing it even closer to the alpha block.

[fruitalgorithm]

The F keys and escape are an abomination on the Microsoft sculpt. I remapped caps lock and escape just because of that.

[Orpheo]

Considering you could dedicated all your typing on a ergodox, I would suggest you make your own with falbatech. They have pvc B grade case for 20€. Get a PCB and try to find mx browns.
Gel mouse pad are nice but for good posture everyone should touch type free hands anyway.
Don't use 2 unit wide for thumbs, those keys are are to source, or maybe just one or two. Notice the arrow cluster is convenient and only sacrificing a single B row key.


You don't need fancy key cap, just get the layout you want and salvage old keycaps for free.

And yes ergodox is great for RSI, the stress on the hands and wrist is so much better.

By the way do you use proper touch type technique? Because it is essential in your case.

When I do gazillion of typing hours I get my right wrist pain kicking even I touch type in the most relax manner without sticking my wrist down but with free hands. It's not enough on traditional keyboards.
The ergodox orthogonal layout and split positioning helped me in those situations and pain went away.
I like trackball too, it's really a pain reliever compared to mouse. Or use a Logitech trackpad, can be bought cheap on the bay.

RSI from my experience is accumulation of bad posture. All of the above advices from others help.
Even if you only have a trackball and split keyboard on your WS is already good because you accumulate less bad positioning.

In order of best to less efficiency in reducing RSI :
Trackball and its position
Split keyboard
Orthogonal layout
Typing technique
Tenting but really I adapt easily to flat split keyboard

Try the trackball first