Let's make the worst layout ever!
- depletedvespene
- Location: Chile
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BTW, I've just had a fantastic idea that builds upon Laser's underkeys concept. People that fancy 60% keyboards like 'em, in part, because omitting the F row allows for more compact units (and people who hate the 60%... things... mostly do for this very same omission). How about compromising? Let's put the F row on the rather underutilized backside of the keyboard so we can both have the cake and eat it! The space between the Esc and F1 keys would remain as is, allowing the USB plug to remain located there, as is the case in the present.
- depletedvespene
- Location: Chile
- Main keyboard: IBM Model F122
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I was thinking of putting the mouse buttons (plus wheel) on one side of the keyboard, so as not to interfere with the wrist rests that seem to be all the rage these days.
You know what? Let's put them on BOTH sides, to accomodate lefties and righties.
You know what? Let's put them on BOTH sides, to accomodate lefties and righties.
- sealclubber
- Main keyboard: Whatever I made most recently
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- Favorite switch: Raw copper contacts
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What about an ergodox with each half on top of a mouse?
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- Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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Of course the left button should be on the left side of the keyboard and the right button should be on the right side of the keyboard. It's only logical.Laser wrote: ↑And three switches on the front side - mouse buttons
Something similar has been done a few times already and people thought that was a good idea.sealclubber wrote: ↑What about an ergodox with each half on top of a mouse?
The KeyMouse has gone through several iterations, but I don't know if you can yet buy one.
The Combimouse has the right side be a mouse, with fewer keys that are instead on the left keyboard half.
The Glide keyboard is non-split but light, moved around with friction against the wrist rest.
For the "Worst layout ever.".. why not have the mouse-keyboard rest of four balls: one in each corner, for balance.
None of these fancy-schmancy optical sensors: With four mouse-balls you get four times the precision .... uh, right?
When I first used my Phantom, bpiphany's firmware had Shift + Shift enter the bootloader. I noticed that I sometimes entered the bootloader accidentally, so I had to edit the source code to have that changed.Muirium wrote: ↑No problem with Shift + Shift = CAPS.
- Laser
- emacs -nw
- Location: Romania
- Main keyboard: Plum TKL \w Topre domes (work) / Novatouch (home)
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The "flipper" keyboard! Excellent idea - and a middle button on the frontside - the "Tilt" switch!
Nice, moving the keyboard moves the mouse - the Ouija keyboard!For the "Worst layout ever.".. why not have the mouse-keyboard rest of four balls: one in each corner, for balance.
None of these fancy-schmancy optical sensors: With four mouse-balls you get four times the precision .... uh, right?
This annoying solution shouldn't be of course available to the user, the "double shift enters the bootloader" must be hardcoded so that the user doesn't have to worry that the combination ever changes its role.When I first used my Phantom, bpiphany's firmware had Shift + Shift enter the bootloader. I noticed that I sometimes entered the bootloader accidentally, so I had to edit the source code to have that changed.Muirium wrote: ↑No problem with Shift + Shift = CAPS.
- depletedvespene
- Location: Chile
- Main keyboard: IBM Model F122
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- DT Pro Member: 0224
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I've been thinking deeply about this... so far, we're including keys on the topside, keys on the underside, keys on the sides, the F row on the back... topologically speaking, this is not any different from (you know where this is going) a sphere. So, with the help of a friend who made the render for me, let's see a quick and dirty rendering of an spherical keyboard.
This, of course, is just a first idea of how to approach this. OBVIOUSLY, the equatorial row will need to have 2U keys, the tropical rows will have to use 1.5U and 1.25U keycaps, and the rest of the surface 1U keys, in diminishing numbers as they approach the poles.
A lot still needs to be worked out — starting with the dimensions of the sphere and the actual number of keys to place. Also, at least one of the polekeys (the one in the South Pole, duh!) will have to be sacrificed to put the USB plug a small cover for the battery compartment (because no one in his or her right mind will doubt for a minute that this needs to be wireless).
I'm still unsure of whether to go for a flat profile for the keycaps or to prefer a sculpted one — "North Cherry" and "South Cherry", for example. Although, it has to be said, this opens up the risk of someone playing fast and loose and making a "marsie" keyboard with a "North OEM" and a "South DSA" profile combination. EEEEEWWWW.
Ain't it wonderful, how some novel concepts evolve into unexpected shapes?
This, of course, is just a first idea of how to approach this. OBVIOUSLY, the equatorial row will need to have 2U keys, the tropical rows will have to use 1.5U and 1.25U keycaps, and the rest of the surface 1U keys, in diminishing numbers as they approach the poles.
A lot still needs to be worked out — starting with the dimensions of the sphere and the actual number of keys to place. Also, at least one of the polekeys (the one in the South Pole, duh!) will have to be sacrificed to put the USB plug a small cover for the battery compartment (because no one in his or her right mind will doubt for a minute that this needs to be wireless).
I'm still unsure of whether to go for a flat profile for the keycaps or to prefer a sculpted one — "North Cherry" and "South Cherry", for example. Although, it has to be said, this opens up the risk of someone playing fast and loose and making a "marsie" keyboard with a "North OEM" and a "South DSA" profile combination. EEEEEWWWW.
Ain't it wonderful, how some novel concepts evolve into unexpected shapes?
- depletedvespene
- Location: Chile
- Main keyboard: IBM Model F122
- Main mouse: Logitech G700s
- Favorite switch: buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: 0224
- Contact:
- depletedvespene
- Location: Chile
- Main keyboard: IBM Model F122
- Main mouse: Logitech G700s
- Favorite switch: buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: 0224
- Contact:
Cash registers? Wouldn't a keyboard designed for a cash register arrange the numbers in a numpad?
I'm not complaining about the F XT layout anymore, after seeing this.
I'm not complaining about the F XT layout anymore, after seeing this.
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- Location: CZ
- Main keyboard: Kinesis Advantage2, JIS ThinkPad,…
- Main mouse: I like (some) trackballs, e.g., L-Trac
- Favorite switch: #vintage ghost Cherry MX Black (+ thick POM caps)
- DT Pro Member: -
The old typematrix was cheaply made and there were some questionable choices made regarding stabilizers, but the layout is fairly decent for touch typing.
In particular, the claim that "hands are still in the same position" and there's "no ergonomic benefit" is just plain wrong, and your whole rant is a projection about how you can't type well.
I have my own issues with the modifier layout on that keyboard, though, and I don't think the form factor and overall layout goes far enough.
In particular, the claim that "hands are still in the same position" and there's "no ergonomic benefit" is just plain wrong, and your whole rant is a projection about how you can't type well.
I have my own issues with the modifier layout on that keyboard, though, and I don't think the form factor and overall layout goes far enough.
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- Location: CZ
- Main keyboard: Kinesis Advantage2, JIS ThinkPad,…
- Main mouse: I like (some) trackballs, e.g., L-Trac
- Favorite switch: #vintage ghost Cherry MX Black (+ thick POM caps)
- DT Pro Member: -
Early 2000s were great for stupid layout ideas. One weird navigation/arrows cluster (from Umax):
Isn't it great to miss an arrow key and shut the computer down? (from KME)
Isn't it great to miss an arrow key and shut the computer down? (from KME)
- Chyros
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: whatever I'm reviewing next :p
- Main mouse: a cheap Logitech
- Favorite switch: Alps SKCM Blue
- DT Pro Member: -
I really don't think you deserve to be on the high horse you're talking down to me from :p .davkol wrote: ↑16 Apr 2019, 12:28The old typematrix was cheaply made and there were some questionable choices made regarding stabilizers, but the layout is fairly decent for touch typing.
In particular, the claim that "hands are still in the same position" and there's "no ergonomic benefit" is just plain wrong, and your whole rant is a projection about how you can't type well.
I have my own issues with the modifier layout on that keyboard, though, and I don't think the form factor and overall layout goes far enough.
"Typing well" is probably not a good choice of words in your case; I'm pretty sure 99% of computer users will not find that a nice layout to use :p . You may like it, sure, but don't make it sound like I'M the weirdo here :p .
- depletedvespene
- Location: Chile
- Main keyboard: IBM Model F122
- Main mouse: Logitech G700s
- Favorite switch: buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: 0224
- Contact:
- Chyros
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: whatever I'm reviewing next :p
- Main mouse: a cheap Logitech
- Favorite switch: Alps SKCM Blue
- DT Pro Member: -
Haha yeah, that's definitely true I guess xD .
- kbdfr
- The Tiproman
- Location: Berlin, Germany
- Main keyboard: Tipro MID-QM-128A + two Tipro matrix modules
- Main mouse: Contour Rollermouse Pro
- Favorite switch: Cherry black
- DT Pro Member: 0010
That's how such reviews are made: claiming objectivity when in fact simply asserting bold assumptions.Chyros wrote: ↑16 Apr 2019, 17:01I really don't think you deserve to be on the high horse you're talking down to me from :p .davkol wrote: ↑16 Apr 2019, 12:28The old typematrix was cheaply made and there were some questionable choices made regarding stabilizers, but the layout is fairly decent for touch typing.
In particular, the claim that "hands are still in the same position" and there's "no ergonomic benefit" is just plain wrong, and your whole rant is a projection about how you can't type well.
I have my own issues with the modifier layout on that keyboard, though, and I don't think the form factor and overall layout goes far enough.
"Typing well" is probably not a good choice of words in your case; I'm pretty sure 99% of computer users will not find that a nice layout to use :p . You may like it, sure, but don't make it sound like I'M the weirdo here :p .
Even ripster's coin-o-meter had more objectivity in it
(Sorry, I couldn't resist . Going back to work… and observer mode )
- Laser
- emacs -nw
- Location: Romania
- Main keyboard: Plum TKL \w Topre domes (work) / Novatouch (home)
- DT Pro Member: 0180
But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there
"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)
"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)
- ZedTheMan
- Location: Central US
- Main keyboard: IModel F77/IBM 3101/Omnikey 102/96Kee
- Main mouse: Logitech G430/Logitech M570/Kensington Expert
- Favorite switch: Beamsprings. Alps SKCM Blue, Capacitive Buckling S
- DT Pro Member: 0219
Two words: Vertical stagger.Laser wrote: ↑16 Apr 2019, 17:48But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there
"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)
More words: I always found ortholinear funky and awkward, I'm sure some prefer it ergonomically but really it's kinda the lame middle ground between normal horizontal stagger and the superior for ergonomics vertical stagger.
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- Location: Stockholm, Sweden
- DT Pro Member: 0011
I agree. If you are supposed to have your wrists orthogonal to the keyboard, then a vertical stagger or a symmetric horizontal stagger would have been better than this.
Also, the very small amount of hand separation and lack of angle between key halves makes it worse for most users' wrists than how most people type on a "regular" keyboard.
... Or, users would adapt to not lining up their fingers into columns at all.
- Chyros
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: whatever I'm reviewing next :p
- Main mouse: a cheap Logitech
- Favorite switch: Alps SKCM Blue
- DT Pro Member: -
First of all, why do you even care if I type ergonomically or not? :pLaser wrote: ↑16 Apr 2019, 17:48But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there
"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)
Second, why is ergonomic better? I mean, just because you can, doesn't mean you NEED to. Since the amount of people with RSI is smaller than the amount of people without, on balance, clearly most don't.
Third, where is it written that ortholinear is more ergonomic than staggered? Especially for all users? I've never seen anyone come up with a good argument in favour of ortholinear.
For once, I agree with your last statement. I do not see how it's any more ergonomic than staggered. It's different for sure but that doesn't magically make it more ergonomic. If all of our fingers were equally sized like some freakish abomination then I'd get the Ortho hype, but even after getting used to it I feel no ergonomic difference in it between staggered YMMVChyros wrote: ↑16 Apr 2019, 18:14First of all, why do you even care if I type ergonomically or not? :pLaser wrote: ↑16 Apr 2019, 17:48But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there
"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)
Second, why is ergonomic better? I mean, just because you can, doesn't mean you NEED to. Since the amount of people with RSI is smaller than the amount of people without, on balance, clearly most don't.
Third, where is it written that ortholinear is more ergonomic than staggered? Especially for all users? I've never seen anyone come up with a good argument in favour of ortholinear.
Can't side with you on your other points though. Its ok to type in your own style if you type at a comfortable speed, but I don't support not learning touch typing, as it took me like a week to learn and I'm a dumbass slow learner (see my soldering jobs)
- depletedvespene
- Location: Chile
- Main keyboard: IBM Model F122
- Main mouse: Logitech G700s
- Favorite switch: buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: 0224
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Well, it's not that bad when you think about it. I tried to combine horizontal stagger and vertical stagger, and the results weren't good:
Perhaps if I should place the keys in band instead of in bar?
Last edited by depletedvespene on 16 Apr 2019, 18:29, edited 3 times in total.
- Laser
- emacs -nw
- Location: Romania
- Main keyboard: Plum TKL \w Topre domes (work) / Novatouch (home)
- DT Pro Member: 0180
In the end, what does matter is that, being a different layout, if you do a review of it without first trying to get familiar with the layout for a while, I can't take you seriously. It's like me typing on colemak, and complaining that I can't type.Chyros wrote: ↑16 Apr 2019, 18:14First of all, why do you even care if I type ergonomically or not? :pLaser wrote: ↑16 Apr 2019, 17:48But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there
"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)
Second, why is ergonomic better? I mean, just because you can, doesn't mean you NEED to. Since the amount of people with RSI is smaller than the amount of people without, on balance, clearly most don't.
Third, where is it written that ortholinear is more ergonomic than staggered? Especially for all users? I've never seen anyone come up with a good argument in favour of ortholinear.
- Chyros
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: whatever I'm reviewing next :p
- Main mouse: a cheap Logitech
- Favorite switch: Alps SKCM Blue
- DT Pro Member: -
I think you're taking the review a bit too seriously mate .Laser wrote: ↑16 Apr 2019, 18:27In the end, what does matter is that, being a different layout, if you do a review of it without first trying to get familiar with the layout for a while, I can't take you seriously. It's like me typing on colemak, and complaining that I can't type.Chyros wrote: ↑16 Apr 2019, 18:14First of all, why do you even care if I type ergonomically or not? :pLaser wrote: ↑16 Apr 2019, 17:48But it's true that ortholinear keyboard layout *is* considered more ergonomic than staggered, so it doesn't matter if 99% of computer users don't feel familiar with it, when first put in contact with such a keyboard. So Chyros, you do deserve a bit of bashing there
"Since I can't type on this, it's not ergonomic" (?)
Second, why is ergonomic better? I mean, just because you can, doesn't mean you NEED to. Since the amount of people with RSI is smaller than the amount of people without, on balance, clearly most don't.
Third, where is it written that ortholinear is more ergonomic than staggered? Especially for all users? I've never seen anyone come up with a good argument in favour of ortholinear.
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- Location: CZ
- Main keyboard: Kinesis Advantage2, JIS ThinkPad,…
- Main mouse: I like (some) trackballs, e.g., L-Trac
- Favorite switch: #vintage ghost Cherry MX Black (+ thick POM caps)
- DT Pro Member: -
The "matrix" layout in TypeMatrix solves one specific problem: being fundamentally symmetrical, it makes both human hands make the same (mirrored) motions, as opposed to different motions on the standard layout with inconsistently offset rows.
Although I personally don't value it, the "matrix" design also allows embedding an almost standard tenkey into the right half without looking too intimidating.
The other feature of that particular model is that it increases the distance between halves by 6 cm, which by definition improves wrist angle. The gap isn't wasted either, as stronger and longer index fingers can be used to press the large Backspace/Enter/Tab keys instead of short little fingers.
It doesn't tackle other issues like human hands' digit ratios, or moving punctuation into better places, though.
At last but not least,
Although I personally don't value it, the "matrix" design also allows embedding an almost standard tenkey into the right half without looking too intimidating.
The other feature of that particular model is that it increases the distance between halves by 6 cm, which by definition improves wrist angle. The gap isn't wasted either, as stronger and longer index fingers can be used to press the large Backspace/Enter/Tab keys instead of short little fingers.
It doesn't tackle other issues like human hands' digit ratios, or moving punctuation into better places, though.
At last but not least,
Xenophobia is the fear and distrust of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange.
- depletedvespene
- Location: Chile
- Main keyboard: IBM Model F122
- Main mouse: Logitech G700s
- Favorite switch: buckling spring
- DT Pro Member: 0224
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Shouldn't we talking about xediophobia instead? I mean, this is specifically about layouts...davkol wrote: ↑16 Apr 2019, 19:11At last but not least,
Xenophobia is the fear and distrust of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange.