Daskeyboard Pro 4 and Matias Tactile Pro with Bouncing Issues

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abrahamstechnology

28 Jan 2019, 16:46

Just resolder different switches after you are done harvesting. Stop throwing the chassis away.
It's just stupid and selfish for someone to destroy a vintage, out-of production computer component so someone can put the pretty blue things in their hipster board, which in a few months will just be thrown on a shelf with 50 other artisan-filled hipster boards anyway.

User avatar
zrrion

28 Jan 2019, 17:29

The question is, would anyone buy the board if it didn't have desirable switches? Most of the time the answer is no. If someone would buy it even without the switches, then it feels like a waste to harvest and throw it in a modern kit keyboard.

There's a wider range of case designs, layouts, and even flip out feet designs in vintage boards as compared to newer stuff and I love seeing interesting design decisions and solutions in keyboards but modern kits tend to use the same small set of design choices in every build. I do see where enthusiast kits are generally of a higher build quality than old boards, but that doesn't make them interesting IMO. I really like when people overcome unique design challenges that vintage layouts and ergo boards tend to present. I guess this is more of a kit keyboard < custom keyboard thing though.

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mike52787
Alps Aficionado

28 Jan 2019, 17:34

lmfao this thread is killing me

How exactly are modern customs which are made in small numbers(usually less than 100), for enthusiasts, and hand built by enthusiasts in any way generic or "run of the mill"?

On the other hand you have a shitty at101w or apple extended keyboard. How many hundreds of thousands of those were produced? What exactly is special about them? They sat on everyone's desk back in the early to mid nineties. putting new switches or caps on those is like putting lipstick on a pig. There is still nothing inherently interesting or good about them, they are just boring old keyboards.
abrahamstechnology wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 16:46
Stop throwing the chassis away.
Do you have any idea how difficult it is to give most of this stuff away? Even just for the price of shipping noone will take most vintage chassis. Even if they do, it's simply not worth the time and effort of packing them up and shipping them off when the garbage can is right there waiting. It's not like there aren't hundreds of thousands of others just like it sitting in dusty old closets or ewaste warehouses.

User avatar
Myoth

28 Jan 2019, 17:40

Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 16:13
most modern keyboards are pretty similar, and pretty usable but quite meh. Vintage ones range from utterly unusable and extremely terribly made to very usable and far superior to anything made today.
I should have said this earlier but when I mentioned modern boards, I didn't think about those premade shits, I was talking about the aluminium customs. Those are pretty much always good keyboard wise. And they're certainly not worse than vintage stuff considering they're all metal and that you could "survive in a zombie apocalypse" or something like that.
abrahamstechnology wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 16:46
Just resolder different switches after you are done harvesting. Stop throwing the chassis away.
It's just stupid and selfish for someone to destroy a vintage, out-of production computer component so someone can put the pretty blue things in their hipster board, which in a few months will just be thrown on a shelf with 50 other artisan-filled hipster boards anyway.
you definitely have too much time on your hands, I don't know anyone who'd put up for sale chassies, it's too much hassle for nothing since noone would buy them apart from you, that's saying something ....

And they're not hipster boards. Again, bring your Model M anywhere, and I'll bring a LZ-CLS or whatever, and we'll see which one will be seen as hipster, the 30 year old, more or less obsolete keyboard, or just a rugged keyboard made out of metal ?

User avatar
abrahamstechnology

28 Jan 2019, 17:44

mike52787 wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 17:34
It's not like there aren't hundreds of thousands of others just like it sitting in dusty old closets or ewaste warehouses.
10 years ago, perhaps.

User avatar
abrahamstechnology

28 Jan 2019, 17:47

Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 17:40

...bring your Model M anywhere, and I'll bring a LZ-CLS or whatever, and we'll see which one will be seen as hipster, the 30 year old, more or less obsolete keyboard, or just a rugged keyboard made out of metal ?
$5 Pro Micro, no longer "obsolete"

User avatar
Myoth

28 Jan 2019, 18:19

abrahamstechnology wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 17:47
Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 17:40

...bring your Model M anywhere, and I'll bring a LZ-CLS or whatever, and we'll see which one will be seen as hipster, the 30 year old, more or less obsolete keyboard, or just a rugged keyboard made out of metal ?
$5 Pro Micro, no longer "obsolete"
so that's your whole response ? are you trying to debate or just jerk yourself off ?

User avatar
Chyros

28 Jan 2019, 18:28

Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 17:40
Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 16:13
most modern keyboards are pretty similar, and pretty usable but quite meh. Vintage ones range from utterly unusable and extremely terribly made to very usable and far superior to anything made today.
I should have said this earlier but when I mentioned modern boards, I didn't think about those premade shits, I was talking about the aluminium customs. Those are pretty much always good keyboard wise.
Dunno mate, most of those are still MX afaik :p .

samuelcable

28 Jan 2019, 18:30

Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 18:28
Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 17:40
Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 16:13
most modern keyboards are pretty similar, and pretty usable but quite meh. Vintage ones range from utterly unusable and extremely terribly made to very usable and far superior to anything made today.
I should have said this earlier but when I mentioned modern boards, I didn't think about those premade shits, I was talking about the aluminium customs. Those are pretty much always good keyboard wise.
Dunno mate, most of those are still MX afaik :p .
Nice

User avatar
Myoth

28 Jan 2019, 18:41

Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 18:28
Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 17:40
Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 16:13
most modern keyboards are pretty similar, and pretty usable but quite meh. Vintage ones range from utterly unusable and extremely terribly made to very usable and far superior to anything made today.
I should have said this earlier but when I mentioned modern boards, I didn't think about those premade shits, I was talking about the aluminium customs. Those are pretty much always good keyboard wise.
Dunno mate, most of those are still MX afaik :p .
rofl, well, there is a reason why people use them, I truly wonder what could it be ...

hmm you may think even DT would have a different opinion about MX but they've won the DTA for the best keyswitch multiple times (unlike beamspring, or even any Alps SKCM/L switch :lol:) ... really makes you think huh ?

User avatar
Mattr567

28 Jan 2019, 19:05

Vintage boards are worth saving. The actual good ones I mean :roll:

No ones gonna shed a tear about your AT101W...ever.

User avatar
Chyros

28 Jan 2019, 19:17

Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 18:41
Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 18:28
Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 17:40


I should have said this earlier but when I mentioned modern boards, I didn't think about those premade shits, I was talking about the aluminium customs. Those are pretty much always good keyboard wise.
Dunno mate, most of those are still MX afaik :p .
rofl, well, there is a reason why people use them, I truly wonder what could it be ...

hmm you may think even DT would have a different opinion about MX but they've won the DTA for the best keyswitch multiple times (unlike beamspring, or even any Alps SKCM/L switch :lol:) ... really makes you think huh ?
You mean that sarcastically, right? :p

User avatar
Myoth

28 Jan 2019, 19:43

Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 19:17
Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 18:41
Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 18:28
Dunno mate, most of those are still MX afaik :p .
rofl, well, there is a reason why people use them, I truly wonder what could it be ...

hmm you may think even DT would have a different opinion about MX but they've won the DTA for the best keyswitch multiple times (unlike beamspring, or even any Alps SKCM/L switch :lol:) ... really makes you think huh ?
You mean that sarcastically, right? :p
not at all.

User avatar
Chyros

28 Jan 2019, 21:11

Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 19:43
Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 19:17
Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 18:41


rofl, well, there is a reason why people use them, I truly wonder what could it be ...

hmm you may think even DT would have a different opinion about MX but they've won the DTA for the best keyswitch multiple times (unlike beamspring, or even any Alps SKCM/L switch :lol:) ... really makes you think huh ?
You mean that sarcastically, right? :p
not at all.
The answer seems so straightforward. The polls you mention are a measure of quantity, not quality. And as you pointed out, these competing technologies are 30 years old, and haven't been shelf-available for decades. Conversely, Cherry MX is the only competitor left. It should be obvious why Cherry managed to garner so much support if the alternatives are so obscure and hard to obtain.

If you need proof; just look back to the mid-to-late 80s, when Cherry wasn't the only piece on the board. They drew comparatively very little attention back then. Reading review articles of the time, they barely even attracted a mention.

User avatar
Inxie

28 Jan 2019, 22:14

Funny fact, my 1994 Chevy's window switches are Cherry, and they are absolutely atrocious, constantly failing in one way or another. I don't know what kind of technology they use, but they do click just like a keyboard switch, in the oddest of housings I have ever seen. (Also far more tactile and harder to press, since they connect to a rocking piece of plastic which acts as the switch you see in the door).

User avatar
abrahamstechnology

28 Jan 2019, 22:59

Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 18:19
abrahamstechnology wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 17:47
Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 17:40

...bring your Model M anywhere, and I'll bring a LZ-CLS or whatever, and we'll see which one will be seen as hipster, the 30 year old, more or less obsolete keyboard, or just a rugged keyboard made out of metal ?
$5 Pro Micro, no longer "obsolete"
so that's your whole response ? are you trying to debate or just jerk yourself off ?
Yes, that is my response. There are endless ways to modernize and/or refit older boards.

User avatar
Myoth

29 Jan 2019, 08:22

Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 21:11
Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 19:43
Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 19:17
You mean that sarcastically, right? :p
not at all.
The answer seems so straightforward. The polls you mention are a measure of quantity, not quality. And as you pointed out, these competing technologies are 30 years old, and haven't been shelf-available for decades. Conversely, Cherry MX is the only competitor left.
Quality ? Quality of what ?

Quality of opinion ? Some people have a better opinion than others? I guess so if they've not tried other switches but if not, then we're equal.


Or quality of the switches ? then MX beats SKCM/L' s quality/durability any day of the week, just mention dirt to an Alps enthusiast and he'll get defensive (me first, Alps is life). Whereas pickup any MX keyboard and it'll likely still work perfectly fine.

User avatar
Myoth

29 Jan 2019, 08:23

abrahamstechnology wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 22:59
Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 18:19
abrahamstechnology wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 17:47


$5 Pro Micro, no longer "obsolete"
so that's your whole response ? are you trying to debate or just jerk yourself off ?
Yes, that is my response. There are endless ways to modernize and/or refit older boards.
That wasn't my point.

User avatar
Myoth

29 Jan 2019, 08:26

Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 21:11
Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 19:43
Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 19:17
You mean that sarcastically, right? :p
not at all.
If you need proof; just look back to the mid-to-late 80s, when Cherry wasn't the only piece on the board. They drew comparatively very little attention back then. Reading review articles of the time, they barely even attracted a mention.
Also, articles from where ? I'm sure they were talked about in Europe considering how common Cherry keyboards are.

Saying Omnikeys weren't very present in the German reviews of keyboards doesn't mean they're bad :)

User avatar
//gainsborough
ALPSの日常

29 Jan 2019, 08:43

abrahamstechnology wrote:
27 Jan 2019, 23:40
I only got here a year ago and already there are no more Blue Alps and SKBM Whites will be depleted by next year.
Just now reading through this amazing thread - how did this slip by without anyone saying anything?? Hahahahaha. There are literally blue alps boards on eBay right now. I even sold a blue alps board today. Put a [WTB] post up for blue alps, I guarantee you'll get multiple PMs.

The well will certainly dry up at some point, but I think we are still a ways off from that point.

User avatar
Chyros

29 Jan 2019, 08:47

Myoth wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 08:22
Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 21:11
Myoth wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 19:43


not at all.
The answer seems so straightforward. The polls you mention are a measure of quantity, not quality. And as you pointed out, these competing technologies are 30 years old, and haven't been shelf-available for decades. Conversely, Cherry MX is the only competitor left.
Quality ? Quality of what ?

Quality of opinion ? Some people have a better opinion than others? I guess so if they've not tried other switches but if not, then we're equal.


Or quality of the switches ? then MX beats SKCM/L' s quality/durability any day of the week, just mention dirt to an Alps enthusiast and he'll get defensive (me first, Alps is life). Whereas pickup any MX keyboard and it'll likely still work perfectly fine.
It's true, vulnerability to dirt and dust is surely one of Alps' biggest weaknesses. I never said they were without weakness. That exact point is why I listed them at #3 rather than #1 of my list of best clicky switches, in fact. Besides, if there's one person out there who's been hammering for years on the importance of getting clean Alps boards, surely it's me.

Of course, I also wasn't talking about Alps in particular, but I guess it's easier for you to pick on Alps than on for example CBS, or so many of the other switches I consider superior to MX (some of which are much more durable than MX yet).

That said, durability is only one facet of switch quality, of course. And yet, I'd rather use a 1-year keyboard with blue Alps than a 20-year keyboard with MX blue, for example. Of course, it would be better if they were virtually indestructible, but it's not the only thing I'd look at. And neither would any Cherry MX fan, seeing how much more long-lived some other switch designs are.

User avatar
Myoth

29 Jan 2019, 08:59

Chyros wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 08:47
Of course, I also wasn't talking about Alps in particular, but I guess it's easier for you to pick on Alps than on for example CBS, or so many of the other switches I consider superior to MX (some of which are much more durable than MX yet).
Or maybe I picked on Alps because it was the topic of the OP ?

User avatar
hansichen

29 Jan 2019, 09:31

Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 21:11
If you need proof; just look back to the mid-to-late 80s, when Cherry wasn't the only piece on the board. They drew comparatively very little attention back then. Reading review articles of the time, they barely even attracted a mention.
That probably depends on where you look at. In the mid 80s Cherry was already the main keyboard manufacturer for a lot of European computer manufacturers. And at least in 1988 with the introduction of the G80-1000 they become dominant on the market. If you can trust the serial numbers they must have sold over 50.000 G81-3000 boards each year, at least 60.000 boards were produced for highscreen until 1992 and the numbers for German G80-1000 boards should be similar (according to serial numbers 100.000 German ones in 1988 and 1989). Maybe you don't find a lot of reviews cause their main market was in Germany but at least there they drew a lot of attention.

User avatar
Chyros

29 Jan 2019, 09:52

hansichen wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 09:31
Chyros wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 21:11
If you need proof; just look back to the mid-to-late 80s, when Cherry wasn't the only piece on the board. They drew comparatively very little attention back then. Reading review articles of the time, they barely even attracted a mention.
That probably depends on where you look at. In the mid 80s Cherry was already the main keyboard manufacturer for a lot of European computer manufacturers. And at least in 1988 with the introduction of the G80-1000 they become dominant on the market. If you can trust the serial numbers they must have sold over 50.000 G81-3000 boards each year, at least 60.000 boards were produced for highscreen until 1992 and the numbers for German G80-1000 boards should be similar (according to serial numbers 100.000 German ones in 1988 and 1989). Maybe you don't find a lot of reviews cause their main market was in Germany but at least there they drew a lot of attention.
Yes, in Germany they were pretty big, although there as well they faced competition from other German manufacturers.

That said, 50k a year seems like a VERY low amount. Key Tronic, IBM, Alps, NMB, Silitek, Chicony and Fujitsu-Siemens produced millions of keyboards, and I'm pretty sure even Honeywell, Focus, Futaba, and Maxi Switch made a lot more than that. Also, I'm pretty sure Cherry was never the biggest keyboard manufacturer in the world (for decades it was Key Tronic, nowadays I'm not sure but I think it might be Lite-On).

User avatar
hansichen

29 Jan 2019, 10:05

50.000 per year is for one keyboard, based on these numbers they probably sold over 150.000 keyboards on the German market (not counting any POS stuff, but I think that mainly came up in the 90s) in the late 80s/early 90s. That's not too bad if you consider that you only have ~90 Million potential customers. So from 1988 to 1994 1 out of 10 German speaking persons bought a cherry keyboard :lol:
Also the mid/late 80s should be the era of all the wyse keyboards which also used Cherry switches. But afaik these are all terminal keyboards so I doubt you'll find reviews on those.

User avatar
swampangel

29 Jan 2019, 15:03

Myoth wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 08:22
Quality ? Quality of what ?

Quality of opinion ? Some people have a better opinion than others? I guess so if they've not tried other switches but if not, then we're equal.
I think that's exactly the point. It's like how "best restaurant" polls in a college town will be dominated by what's in staggering distance of the dorms. Doesn't mean it's a bad place to eat, just that a lot of the voters have a limited perspective.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

29 Jan 2019, 15:34

All of Scotland’s best restaurants are Chippies. And I’m not even making that up!

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