Lubing Model F springs/sliders

User avatar
Wazrach

28 Aug 2019, 11:31

Hi guys, I'd like to bring this topic back, as nobody has really talked about it for a few years.

As much as I like the metallic ringing of the Model F, I'm trying to create the perfect Battleship. I recently got a lovely keycap set from Unicomp, but wanted to take it a bit further, since they're not as smooth as the original caps. I applied Tribosys 3204 to the key stems of the alpha keys with a paint brush, although this didn't help much. I then applied some to the inside of the stems, which DID change the feel. The keys are much smoother, although they do still bind slightly when being pressed off-center. They are quieter, slightly deeper-sounding, and the ping is 90% gone. I definitely like the feel and sound of the lubed switches compared to the unlubed ones, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to go ahead and lube the rest, as I think I might miss the ping. :P

What are your experiences? Has anyone else tried this recently? If so, how does it compare to floss-modding?

Fkazim

28 Aug 2019, 11:58

I have very recently fully floss modded my IBM Model F AT including the spacebar which meant I had to disassemble the whole keyboard AGAIN to floss the spacebars spring I do prefer the feel of the keyboard with the floss mod. On the other hand I have never tried lubing the keys on any Model F mainly because they are already incredibly smooth. Honestly I think if you just want to get rid of the ping I recommend just floss modding but if it is smoothness you want i guess you could try lubing the switch barrels. Tonight I will post a video on my YouTube of how my IBM Model F AT sounds with the floss mod.

User avatar
Wazrach

28 Aug 2019, 12:05

Fkazim wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 11:58
I have very recently fully floss modded my IBM Model F AT including the spacebar which meant I had to disassemble the whole keyboard AGAIN to floss the spacebars spring I do prefer the feel of the keyboard with the floss mod. On the other hand I have never tried lubing the keys on any Model F mainly because they are already incredibly smooth. Honestly I think if you just want to get rid of the ping I recommend just floss modding but if it is smoothness you want i guess you could try lubing the switch barrels. Tonight I will post a video on my YouTube of how my IBM Model F AT sounds with the floss mod.
I would do a floss mod, but it does seem a bit unrefined. I don't want to deaden the sound of the springs necessarily, I just want them to sound and possibly feel better.

Fkazim

28 Aug 2019, 12:17

IMO the floss mod does make the switches feel nicer and also majorly quietens the springs. I think this is a good thing when gaming with my friends because with the floss mod I can use my keyboard without completely deafening everyone in the voice chat lol.

User avatar
SneakyRobb

28 Aug 2019, 16:44

In my anecdotal experience whenever I try to combine new unicomp keycaps with old model f barrel frames it always feels a bit scratchy. I think its just because the model m barrel frame seems more slippery than the model f barrel housings and perhaps the unicomp keys are slightly different to take advantage of that plastic... I am not sure though.

It's just my opinion but when putting an ansi enter into a F122 that otherwise has original keys, the enter key is always verrrrryyyy slightly gritty. Haven't found a good way to fix it.

The flossmod is alright. It doesn't really to me make the main keyboard "click clack" quieter, it seems to cut down on the high range ping noise.

So if you press a model f key and release it really fast so it springs back up really fast, the spring reverbs a ping for a while.

The flossmod IMO seems to cut down that pinging-ring, but it doesn't really soften the sound of the flipper smacking up and down.

I am not sure I would call the sound of the floss mod better though. It is a sort of muting effect, it's a bit more model M.

With a few years of tinnitus under my belt I basically can't notice the floss mod anymore.

User avatar
Wazrach

28 Aug 2019, 17:26

SneakyRobb wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 16:44
In my anecdotal experience whenever I try to combine new unicomp keycaps with old model f barrel frames it always feels a bit scratchy. I think its just because the model m barrel frame seems more slippery than the model f barrel housings and perhaps the unicomp keys are slightly different to take advantage of that plastic... I am not sure though.

It's just my opinion but when putting an ansi enter into a F122 that otherwise has original keys, the enter key is always verrrrryyyy slightly gritty. Haven't found a good way to fix it.

The flossmod is alright. It doesn't really to me make the main keyboard "click clack" quieter, it seems to cut down on the high range ping noise.

So if you press a model f key and release it really fast so it springs back up really fast, the spring reverbs a ping for a while.

The flossmod IMO seems to cut down that pinging-ring, but it doesn't really soften the sound of the flipper smacking up and down.

I am not sure I would call the sound of the floss mod better though. It is a sort of muting effect, it's a bit more model M.

With a few years of tinnitus under my belt I basically can't notice the floss mod anymore.
I know the floss mod will not affect the sound of the flippers, but I don't want to attenuate any nice spring noise.

I went ahead and lubed all of the key stems. The sound is a bit quieter and deeper, and most of the reverb is definitely gone. I would still like to try and spray the springs with this WD40 3-in-1 PTFE spray I have, but I don't know if it will mess with the keyboard if I just spray it directly into the barrels. I also don't know if it will react with the Tribosys or something.

Looking forward to lining the bottom pan with shelf liner, once it arrives. :P

Have you found any way to make the F122 spacebar sound better? That's the only key that sounds somewhat disappointing at the minute. I have the Unicomp spacebar with electrical tape around the wire so that it fits. I also put some 1mm adhesive neoprene pads under the "posts" at either side of the spacebar to reduce the travel slightly. The problem isn't the little posts hitting the metal, it seems to be the other barrel that keeps the spacebar in place. I don't know why it sounds so awful after refurbishing the keyboard, but it's so shallow and rattly. I've tried cushioning the second spacebar barrel with electrical tape (where it goes into the spacebar), but the barrel is so slippery that the tape doesn't even hold for one second.

Any ideas?

User avatar
Wazrach

28 Aug 2019, 17:27

I must say, as much as I like the ping, it is nice to have a breather and experience a quieter keyboard. It lets you focus on the thock and click more.

User avatar
SneakyRobb

28 Aug 2019, 17:52

Spoiler:
Wazrach wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 17:26
SneakyRobb wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 16:44
In my anecdotal experience whenever I try to combine new unicomp keycaps with old model f barrel frames it always feels a bit scratchy. I think its just because the model m barrel frame seems more slippery than the model f barrel housings and perhaps the unicomp keys are slightly different to take advantage of that plastic... I am not sure though.

It's just my opinion but when putting an ansi enter into a F122 that otherwise has original keys, the enter key is always verrrrryyyy slightly gritty. Haven't found a good way to fix it.

The flossmod is alright. It doesn't really to me make the main keyboard "click clack" quieter, it seems to cut down on the high range ping noise.

So if you press a model f key and release it really fast so it springs back up really fast, the spring reverbs a ping for a while.

The flossmod IMO seems to cut down that pinging-ring, but it doesn't really soften the sound of the flipper smacking up and down.

I am not sure I would call the sound of the floss mod better though. It is a sort of muting effect, it's a bit more model M.

With a few years of tinnitus under my belt I basically can't notice the floss mod anymore.
I know the floss mod will not affect the sound of the flippers, but I don't want to attenuate any nice spring noise.

I went ahead and lubed all of the key stems. The sound is a bit quieter and deeper, and most of the reverb is definitely gone. I would still like to try and spray the springs with this WD40 3-in-1 PTFE spray I have, but I don't know if it will mess with the keyboard if I just spray it directly into the barrels. I also don't know if it will react with the Tribosys or something.

Looking forward to lining the bottom pan with shelf liner, once it arrives. :P

Have you found any way to make the F122 spacebar sound better? That's the only key that sounds somewhat disappointing at the minute. I have the Unicomp spacebar with electrical tape around the wire so that it fits. I also put some 1mm adhesive neoprene pads under the "posts" at either side of the spacebar to reduce the travel slightly. The problem isn't the little posts hitting the metal, it seems to be the other barrel that keeps the spacebar in place. I don't know why it sounds so awful after refurbishing the keyboard, but it's so shallow and rattly. I've tried cushioning the second spacebar barrel with electrical tape (where it goes into the spacebar), but the barrel is so slippery that the tape doesn't even hold for one second.

Any ideas?

Hi, can you confirm if you are using a model M spacebar or the Model F122 spacebar?

IIRC the model F122 space bar has little feet at the front that stop the travel so the dummy barrel doesn't hit.

The model M spacebar is stopped by the dummy barrel as it doesn't have the little feet.

Edit: here is the thread I remember https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=78801.0 I just notice you said you got a new unicomp keyset so maybe you have a spacebar with no feets

User avatar
Wazrach

28 Aug 2019, 19:29

SneakyRobb wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 17:52
Spoiler:
Wazrach wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 17:26
SneakyRobb wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 16:44
In my anecdotal experience whenever I try to combine new unicomp keycaps with old model f barrel frames it always feels a bit scratchy. I think its just because the model m barrel frame seems more slippery than the model f barrel housings and perhaps the unicomp keys are slightly different to take advantage of that plastic... I am not sure though.

It's just my opinion but when putting an ansi enter into a F122 that otherwise has original keys, the enter key is always verrrrryyyy slightly gritty. Haven't found a good way to fix it.

The flossmod is alright. It doesn't really to me make the main keyboard "click clack" quieter, it seems to cut down on the high range ping noise.

So if you press a model f key and release it really fast so it springs back up really fast, the spring reverbs a ping for a while.

The flossmod IMO seems to cut down that pinging-ring, but it doesn't really soften the sound of the flipper smacking up and down.

I am not sure I would call the sound of the floss mod better though. It is a sort of muting effect, it's a bit more model M.

With a few years of tinnitus under my belt I basically can't notice the floss mod anymore.
I know the floss mod will not affect the sound of the flippers, but I don't want to attenuate any nice spring noise.

I went ahead and lubed all of the key stems. The sound is a bit quieter and deeper, and most of the reverb is definitely gone. I would still like to try and spray the springs with this WD40 3-in-1 PTFE spray I have, but I don't know if it will mess with the keyboard if I just spray it directly into the barrels. I also don't know if it will react with the Tribosys or something.

Looking forward to lining the bottom pan with shelf liner, once it arrives. :P

Have you found any way to make the F122 spacebar sound better? That's the only key that sounds somewhat disappointing at the minute. I have the Unicomp spacebar with electrical tape around the wire so that it fits. I also put some 1mm adhesive neoprene pads under the "posts" at either side of the spacebar to reduce the travel slightly. The problem isn't the little posts hitting the metal, it seems to be the other barrel that keeps the spacebar in place. I don't know why it sounds so awful after refurbishing the keyboard, but it's so shallow and rattly. I've tried cushioning the second spacebar barrel with electrical tape (where it goes into the spacebar), but the barrel is so slippery that the tape doesn't even hold for one second.

Any ideas?

Hi, can you confirm if you are using a model M spacebar or the Model F122 spacebar?

IIRC the model F122 space bar has little feet at the front that stop the travel so the dummy barrel doesn't hit.

The model M spacebar is stopped by the dummy barrel as it doesn't have the little feet.

Edit: here is the thread I remember https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=78801.0 I just notice you said you got a new unicomp keyset so maybe you have a spacebar with no feets
It doesn't have the feet at the front, no. The old F spacebar had the same issue though - it sounded pretty shallow and rickety.

User avatar
Wazrach

28 Aug 2019, 19:32

So is that what gives the stock F122 spacebar its amazing sound? Are the posts hitting the barrel frame at the same time as the barrel?

User avatar
Wazrach

28 Aug 2019, 19:52

Maybe that's the culprit. I added a bolt to the right of the spacebar barrel, just like in Fohat's F122 guide. Next time I get an F122, I won't be doing that.

User avatar
SneakyRobb

28 Aug 2019, 20:17

Hi,

I wouldn't say the feet are or are not responsible for the F122 spacebar sound. The keyboard causes the sound. I am just throwing out possible causes for your issue!

Does the bolt interfere with either of the spacebars going down all the way?

Can you post some images of the bolt and its location while the spacebar is pressed.

User avatar
Wazrach

28 Aug 2019, 20:42

SneakyRobb wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 20:17
Hi,

I wouldn't say the feet are or are not responsible for the F122 spacebar sound. The keyboard causes the sound. I am just throwing out possible causes for your issue!

Does the bolt interfere with either of the spacebars going down all the way?

Can you post some images of the bolt and its location while the spacebar is pressed.
The bolt isn't making contact with the spacebar, I definitely checked that already. It must be the feet that are causing the sound.

Anthony_A

06 Sep 2019, 07:04

Wazrach wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 19:29
SneakyRobb wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 17:52
Spoiler:
Wazrach wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 17:26


I know the floss mod will not affect the sound of the flippers, but I don't want to attenuate any nice spring noise.
mycfavisit
I went ahead and lubed all of the key stems. The sound is a bit quieter and deeper, and most of the reverb is definitely gone. I would still like to try and spray the springs with this WD40 3-in-1 PTFE spray I have, but I don't know if it will mess with the keyboard if I just spray it directly into the barrels. I also don't know if it will react with the Tribosys or something.

Looking forward to lining the bottom pan with shelf liner, once it arrives. :P

Have you found any way to make the F122 spacebar sound better? That's the only key that sounds somewhat disappointing at the minute. I have the Unicomp spacebar with electrical tape around the wire so that it fits. I also put some 1mm adhesive neoprene pads under the "posts" at either side of the spacebar to reduce the travel slightly. The problem isn't the little posts hitting the metal, it seems to be the other barrel that keeps the spacebar in place. I don't know why it sounds so awful after refurbishing the keyboard, but it's so shallow and rattly. I've tried cushioning the second spacebar barrel with electrical tape (where it goes into the spacebar), but the barrel is so slippery that the tape doesn't even hold for one second.

Any ideas?

Hi, can you confirm if you are using a model M spacebar or the Model F122 spacebar?

IIRC the model F122 space bar has little feet at the front that stop the travel so the dummy barrel doesn't hit.

The model M spacebar is stopped by the dummy barrel as it doesn't have the little feet.

Edit: here is the thread I remember https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=78801.0 I just notice you said you got a new unicomp keyset so maybe you have a spacebar with no feets
It doesn't have the feet at the front, no. The old F spacebar had the same issue though - it sounded pretty shallow and rickety.
I added a bolt to the right of the spacebar barrel, just like in Fohat's F122 guide. Next time I get an F122, I won't be doing that.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

06 Sep 2019, 15:07

Wazrach wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 19:52

I added a bolt to the right of the spacebar barrel, just like in Fohat's F122 guide.
I deprecated that portion of the guide years and years ago. I suppose I need to delete that photo with the blue tape.

"I do, however, feel that a few (about 3) bolts along the longitudinal center line are helpful. Steel plates do not like inside curves, so pulling them together with inward pressure along the bend line is good. The most efficacious locations seem to be between F5 and 5%, between Enter and up arrow and between CapsLock/Left shift and left F6/F8."

User avatar
Wazrach

06 Sep 2019, 18:36

fohat wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 15:07
Wazrach wrote:
28 Aug 2019, 19:52

I added a bolt to the right of the spacebar barrel, just like in Fohat's F122 guide.
I deprecated that portion of the guide years and years ago. I suppose I need to delete that photo with the blue tape.

"I do, however, feel that a few (about 3) bolts along the longitudinal center line are helpful. Steel plates do not like inside curves, so pulling them together with inward pressure along the bend line is good. The most efficacious locations seem to be between F5 and 5%, between Enter and up arrow and between CapsLock/Left shift and left F6/F8."
Hah. Yeah, it's not the end of the world. The spacebar sounds alright with some neoprene under it. I do prefer the metallic thunk of the stock spacebar much more though.

User avatar
Darkshado

07 Sep 2019, 01:43

Before lubing your caps check you don't have any issues with leftover plastic flashing, the fix is simple.

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