Recreating the Lisp keyboard (10 years later)

[lispnick]

^ Interest in 60%? Raises hand.

HHKB layout or like my Kishsaver preferably. Magnificent size for a heavy duty instrument of choice.

Sure, … I have noticed that (some of) the HHKB admirers are quite insane. I mean they are willing to spend 2000 USD for things like aftermarket steel case with a fake patina, … it remains to persuade them that none of this is complete without my keycaps. I just have to sell it to them like Steve Jobs or Elizabeth Holmes!

Now, seriously, the support of HHKB means just adding a 6.00U spacebar if I am not mistaken.

[lispnick]

I’d be interested in an ANSI TKL and full size layout. With an option for a big ass enter

Wow, big ass enter, … I secretly hoped no one would request that.

[lispnick]

Here's an expert artist's impression of what gorgeous beauty I am after here:

Yummy, however I am not sure if the integrated wrist rest would work for such a small keyboard. I would probably make the case wristrestless.

[lispnick]

I would love to buy a full-size ANSI board or, if that isn't an option, a TKL. Anything more compact just doesn't work for me, unfortunately.

Not a problem, just a few keys to add to the set. The real problem may be the case manufacturing. I cannot afford to throw money into 50 sets of big cases (the manufacturing costs have risen significantly). So, this brings me back either to selling just the keycap sets alone (as I once planned) or make small batches of the cases or completely bespoke cases. Individually made full size case in aluminium that extends the current keymacs case would be somewhere in to 2k ballpark. This is just the manufacturing cost that leaves nothing in my pocket (which is okay, because I do not want to make money on just reselling stuff).

ANSI and TKL are probably the demand sweet spot. I'd be tempted, but not nearly as much as a symmetrical layout, in keeping with the original's. TKL's main downsides, for me, are its inherent asymmetry and its sheer bloody ubiquity now!

I agree. What about the spacebar sizes? I have just 9.00U now, it seems to me it is work making at least 7.00U, 6.25U, and 6.00U in order to be sufficiently versatile.

[Muirium]

Now, seriously, the support of HHKB means just adding a 6.00U spacebar if I am not mistaken.

Checks:


vs. HHKB (diagram with my own nutty layers and macros):

Spoiler:

They're quite similar. I do see what you're doing with those crafty equal-sized Shift keys though. With 60%, you have no keys to the left to pad them, so you'd really have to make a regular 2.25 unit Shift key to be flush with the edge of the keyboard.

Required for HHKB:

• 6.0u Spacebar
• 2.25u left Shift
• 1.75u right Shift
• 1u Fn key on Shift row
• 1u Esc key for top row
• 1u \ key for top row
• 1u ` key for top row
• 1.5u Command keys for either side of spacebar

I quite like the layout you've made, and indeed the original's. The HHKB is a younger descendant from that same source, and it shows.

Alternatively, there is the Kishsaver route:


IBM's layout is essentially a modern ANSI TKL cut down to 60%. The version I use myself is HHKB-inspired (because you can pick and choose your layout on Model F, as barrels can be either keys or stabilisers; there are sense pads under all of them)

Required for Kishsaver style HHKB:

• 6.25u Spacebar
• 2.25u left Shift
• 2.75u right Shift → like regular ANSI and ISO
• 1u Esc key for top row
• 1u \ key for top row
• 1u ` key for top row
• 1.5u Command keys for either side of spacebar
• 1.5u Fn key on spacebar row

Do I think a 'full frame' 60% layout looks better than the HHKB? No, I don't, but it's fairly close. This way doesn't have the special HHKB magic, which may well prove important with the costs you incur. But it is more compatible, production-wise with ANSI TKL.

What about the spacebar sizes? I have just 9.00U now, it seems to me it is work making at least 7.00U, 6.25U, and 6.00U in order to be sufficiently versatile.

Good point! Personally, I'd find 6.25u spacebar fine on a custom HHKB. (On the right edge, shifting the two right mods over a quarter.) I switch between HHKB and Kishsaver daily and there's no confusion for me, especially over a quarter unit difference on the spacebar. I can't speak for the custom case HHKB cultists, but 6.25 for compatibility across the range of layouts makes most sense to me. 6.0 unit spacebars are unusual outside of Topre.

[lispnick]

…
Alternatively, there is the Kishsaver route:


IBM's layout is essentially a modern ANSI TKL cut down to 60%. The version I use myself is HHKB-inspired (because you can pick and choose your layout on Model F, as barrels can be either keys or stabilisers; there are sense pads under all of them)

Required for Kishsaver style HHKB:

• 6.25u Spacebar
  …

Isn't that a 7.00U spacebar? 4x1.5U + 2x1U + 7U = 15U

[depletedvespene]

Isn't that a 7.00U spacebar? 4x1.5U + 2x1U + 7U = 15U

It is. Do remember that actual HHKB keyboards have a different physical layout, with less keys in the bottom row:

HHKB.

EWWW.png (527.99 KiB) Viewed 54107 times

Also, don't tell the HHKB-cultists that: a) the F62 came first; b) the HHKB layout is an obvious copy of the M0110 keyboard.

[Muirium]

Me and my head for numbers! Yes: 7u on classic boards with alternating 1.5 and 1.0u modifiers; 6.25u on the ubiquitous modern ones with uniform 1.25u mods.

Vespene's right about the HHKB look being defined by the shorter spacebar row as much as the layout itself. (He is of course just as entirely incorrect about the result. You keep your layout maximalism out of this 60%!) Evidently, I’m not one of these supposed cultists who really cares one way or the other. The genius of the HHKB is the top and Shift rows for me.

As for 7u spacebar on an HHKB version of your board? Well, I'd dig it. Push the bottom mods out half a unit either side and you're all set.

[engr]

Not a problem, just a few keys to add to the set. The real problem may be the case manufacturing. I cannot afford to throw money into 50 sets of big cases (the manufacturing costs have risen significantly). So, this brings me back either to selling just the keycap sets alone (as I once planned) or make small batches of the cases or completely bespoke cases. Individually made full size case in aluminium that extends the current keymacs case would be somewhere in to 2k ballpark. This is just the manufacturing cost that leaves nothing in my pocket (which is okay, because I do not want to make money on just reselling stuff).

Yeah, unfortunately, $2K would be more than I can afford.

What about polycarbonate cases like this? How expensive would the manufacturing costs be?

If you can get the standalone keycap sets going, that would be ideal, but if I recall, there were some issues with casting them to the required tolerances. Then there is the issue of compatibility with million types of vintage Alps keyboards with all their layout quirks and stabilizer types. Tai-Hao included a ton of extra keycaps in their Alps kit, and it's still not enough to work with my Omnikeys (spacebar, BAE, weird 1u keys on later models) or AT101W (spacebar).

[depletedvespene]

You keep your layout maximalism out of this 60%!

Well, of course! A real keyboard doesn't fit!

[lispnick]

What about polycarbonate cases like this? How expensive would the manufacturing costs be?

I have no idea how that was made. In general, everything made of plastics, if it is injection moulded, costs a fortune unless you make it in huge quantities. The cheaper variant is 3d printing but it looks considerably worse. In small quantities it is actually cheaper to make them from machined aluminium (if we do not consider polycarbonate sandwiches as an option).

If you can get the standalone keycap sets going, that would be ideal, but if I recall, there were some issues with casting them to the required tolerances. Then there is the issue of compatibility with million types of vintage Alps keyboards with all their layout quirks and stabilizer types. Tai-Hao included a ton of extra keycaps in their Alps kit, and it's still not enough to work with my Omnikeys (spacebar, BAE, weird 1u keys on later models) or AT101W (spacebar).

Yes, … the Alps are a nightmare. The issues with the technique that prevented me to offer keycap sets so far are more related to the two-sided machining than casting, but I am constantly improving the process, trying to tame the imprecision and it looks it is going in the good direction. The final process will not be as simple as I originally thought but not as complicated as I do it now (I am now in a transition stage from the initial process to the new one and there are some intermediate steps I would like to get rid of).

[engr]

The cheaper variant is 3d printing but it looks considerably worse.

From what I've seen, parts, including keyboard cases, made with stereolithography look really nice (especially in translucent materials) but I'm not sure about the costs or longevity. On the positive note, roomy plastic cases make Alps sound really nice.

[Muirium]

Hmm…



By itself, bottom left pic, it looks quite nice. But I don’t dig that look for a keyboard. Only really pairs with your cherished bondi G3 iMac.

Metal is definitely the classiest keyboard material. How much for a 60% shrink, do you think? I too could never dream to spend 2k on a keyboard.

[lispnick]

The cheaper variant is 3d printing but it looks considerably worse.

From what I've seen, parts, including keyboard cases, made with stereolithography look really nice (especially in translucent materials) but I'm not sure about the costs or longevity. On the positive note, roomy plastic cases make Alps sound really nice.

SLA is the best in terms of the looks. Most small printers have very little beds, though. So, making a full size case means printing it in several pieces that must be somehow attached together and that's where it begins to be messy. In addition, the photopolymers are not exactly cheap materials, especially if you want something with ABS-style properties (in terms of the rigidity).

[lispnick]

Metal is definitely the classiest keyboard material. How much for a 60% shrink, do you think? I too could never dream to spend 2k on a keyboard.

When I was interested in quotes about 6 months ago, the current version of the case was about 600 EUR per case in the quantity of 5 pcs. 60% with no wrist rest would be like 450 EUR (only estimate) in that quantity. Those 2k were really for just a single individually made case, it is always expensive because somebody has to make the CAM programming.

[Muirium]

Actually, for a production run of just 5, that's not bad. We're all quite used to MOQs and such, as regular group buys make the economies of scale (and lack thereof) quite apparent!

[engr]

Since we are talking about all kinds of high-end options, does anyone remember Engicoder's calculator/clock/calendar OLED for FK-9000? Imagine Keymacs in 100%+ layout... with a calculator... and with macro keys that are programmable on the fly...
At that point, I would probably sell or give away 90% of my keyboard collection, because what else can you possibly want after this?

[Muirium]

Regards the 'wall of caps' vs. HHKB look for 60% boards, here's a couple of mine:



I love my little Blue Alps64. (Plenty enough to subsequently upgrade the yellowed AEK I spacebar!) But there's something ultimately not quite right feeling about the Poker keyboard format. (Hasu's Alps64 PCB and my Lambo case are both designed with Poker compatibility in mind.) The resulting board is nice and tightly sized, but lacks a certain something which my Kishsaver here has, along with the HHKB. Top surface speaks to me? In moderation, yes!

[lispnick]

Regards the 'wall of caps' vs. HHKB look for 60% boards, here's a couple of mine:



I love my little Blue Alps64. (Plenty enough to subsequently upgrade the yellowed AEK I spacebar!) But there's something ultimately not quite right feeling about the Poker keyboard format. (Hasu's Alps64 PCB and my Lambo case are both designed with Poker compatibility in mind.) The resulting board is nice and tightly sized, but lacks a certain something which my Kishsaver here has, along with the HHKB. Top surface speaks to me? In moderation, yes!

So it seems to me that the most practical variant is a 5x15 case with a simple rectangular cutout. If anyone needs to make it more HHKBish, it can be solved by putting dummy covers (1.5U on the left and 2.5U on the right) in a similar way as in this Texas Instruments keyboard. I already have dummies for 1U keys that can be used to make a “winkeyless” variant, this would be just a simple extension.

[Muirium]

Yeah, blockers don’t cut it. Would like to see what yours look like, though, as they’re metal. Certainly, I’ve never seen it done as nicely as a case, so far.

15×5 works well on my Kishsaver, where it’s surrounded by plenty of metal case besides. I think it’s just the extreme case of the Poker where it’s so in your face that it’s wrong.

[lispnick]

Yeah, blockers don’t cut it. Would like to see what yours look like, though, as they’re metal. Certainly, I’ve never seen it done as nicely as a case, so far.

15×5 works well on my Kishsaver, where it’s surrounded by plenty of metal case besides. I think it’s just the extreme case of the Poker where it’s so in your face that it’s wrong.

Ok, it seems to be a good time for some artist's impressions. Behold, the mighty Lispsaver!

[Muirium]

Top one's definitely better, as you'd expect to hear. But here's something you wouldn't: I think it should be less like the HHKB and more like your current design by having a good bit more in front of the keys. The 'lil slab look is cool, and this would perhaps be its best incarnation yet, but I can't help think it needs a little more… cowbell.

[depletedvespene]

Ok, it seems to be a good time for some artist's impressions. Behold, the mighty Lispsaver!

Can you call either of them a "Lispsaver" if neither has a dedicated parenthesis key (much less two, one per sign)?

Those are indeed damn good renders. I dislike both physical layouts, but that's a different issue.

[lispnick]

Top one's definitely better, as you'd expect to hear. But here's something you wouldn't: I think it should be less like the HHKB and more like your current design by having a good bit more in front of the keys. The 'lil slab look is cool, and this would perhaps be its best incarnation yet, but I can't help think it needs a little more… cowbell.

Okay, here is a variant with a wrist rest, beautified by the golden ratio and in the Kishsaver layout:



The beauty of the blank keys is that if someone wants to make it more HHKBish, it is just a matter of putting two blanks in the corners:



… or two 1U blanks in order to make a winkeless variant:



Another nice aspect that is not apparent at first sight is that both the variants (rest or restless) use the same bottom part.

[lispnick]

Ok, it seems to be a good time for some artist's impressions. Behold, the mighty Lispsaver!

Can you call either of them a "Lispsaver" if neither has a dedicated parenthesis key (much less two, one per sign)?

Those are indeed damn good renders. I dislike both physical layouts, but that's a different issue.

I would really turn this into a very general platform—I supply cases (and their modifications) and keycaps, you do the hacking. I plan to order a large quantity of odd keys to satisfy any perverted needs.

[depletedvespene]

Ok, it seems to be a good time for some artist's impressions. Behold, the mighty Lispsaver!

Can you call either of them a "Lispsaver" if neither has a dedicated parenthesis key (much less two, one per sign)?

Those are indeed damn good renders. I dislike both physical layouts, but that's a different issue.

I would really turn this into a very general platform—I supply cases (and their modifications) and keycaps, you do the hacking. I plan to order a large quantity of odd keys to satisfy any perverted needs.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeell... this particular pervert has a rather odd idea about the number of columns a compact form factor should have, while keeping an even view about the rows it ought to contain. But if that were to be the case, my dream wouldn't fit in that case:

79% (17×6).

79PC_17.0.png (25.76 KiB) Viewed 53359 times

It'd be even worse if I widened the breadth of my perversion, taking advantage of stepped keys to simulate separators:

79% (17.5×6).

79PC_17.5.png (26.62 KiB) Viewed 53359 times

But then again, no true pervert would want a keyboard with less keys than it should have, wouldn't he?

[Muirium]

I plan to order a large quantity of odd keys to satisfy any perverted needs.

You called?

The front edge gives these something no other sixty of mine has had so far. I like it. Naturally, I'd want to throw a full suit of those gorgeous caps of yours—with legends—rather than rocking blanks. It's already suitably austere! How about a render of the top one with a nice set of Symbolics?

@Vespene: I actually quite like what you're doing with that (wholly unnecessary) arrow cluster in the last pic. Stepped caps make classy separators.

[lispnick]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeell... this particular pervert has a rather odd idea about the number of columns a compact form factor should have, while keeping an even view about the rows it ought to contain. But if that were to be the case, my dream wouldn't fit in that case:

79PC_17.0.png (25.76 KiB) Viewed 53329 times

This one is actually doable with the additional key profiles that I plan to order (including the stepped ISO enter and larger convex keys in the bottom row) and the stepped F-keys. I planned to introduce these in case someone would like to fit an ANSI/ISO-style keyboard into the Symbolics 6x20 case.

[Muirium]

Convex keys in the bottom row!? Yes!! I love those. So much better for the thumbs than a sharp leading edge. Love the look as well.

[lispnick]

I plan to order a large quantity of odd keys to satisfy any perverted needs.

You called?

The front edge gives these something no other sixty of mine has had so far. I like it. Naturally, I'd want to throw a full suit of those gorgeous caps of yours—with legends—rather than rocking blanks. It's already suitably austere! How about a render of the top one with a nice set of Symbolics?

Sorry, rendering all with legend will take a lot of time (not the rendering but setting up all the models, I have already spent quite some time to get these views with blanks).