Dear Model F owners, can we talk? (Long rant)

[vometia]

As I've said before, I don't use the numpad that often, but when I enter numbers, I really miss it when it's not there. But that's probably also because I grew up with a numpad and muscle memory expects it to be there. I'm sure if I grew up without a numpad, I'd look at things differently.

I wish there were more options for USB numpad-only keyboards so I could have it there when I needed it. Various applications really want it and while it's possible to rebind the keys it's often a pain in the arse to configure and not much better to use. But there's only ever one or two available at any given time (if there are any at all) with often fairly indifferent ratings, so I've never bothered. But I prefer a TKL because I'm not a good aim with the mouse and it still collides with the keyboard too often as it is. With something like a DEC LK it'd be awful, I don't think my arm's long enough.

[Muirium]

Numpads, pah!

Actually, I like the look of standalone vintage ones. Cherry used to make them handsome, and Topre too. Been tempted once or twice. Just have zero use for one, myself. Don’t need an expansion to the existing collection. I mean, I’d need a little companion piece for everything. None of which I’d ever use. Noo!

Sad to hear about your gf, btw. Loss is a seriously bad bitch.

[rezenew]

Wanted to give my two cents on this, I have always been in the camp that model fs were way better, having a clean XT, while my only experiences with M's were ones from the 90's.

Recently I had been donated a 1390120 M from my uni, dated Jan 17 of 86. It feels much, much better than every other experience with M's I have had in the past.

It feels a lot crisper, almost like a model f in that way, still slightly heavier. It's close enough to where I'd prefer it over the XT if I liked the enhanced layout (I don't). It also has about 10 or so rivits broken, so I would imagine it would feel even better after being bolt modded.

I think most of this discussion comes from people who are comparing model F's which for the most part all feel really good, to M's which have much greater variance. As after trying an early M, I'm a lot more open to the thought of using one.

[Muirium]

I proxied an early silver label Model M from Cindy for Andrewjoy once. It was in pretty decent nick. Still no comparison to Model F though. It shipped with my AT and SSK as I recall. As much as I loved the form factor and layout of the SSK, and as much as Andy’s silver label M had it beat, the AT towered over both of them in feel and sound. The difference between M and F is just night and day.

Of course, I was already well used to my first mech: an XT which I came by shortly after joining DT. I think this is key to my own perspective. I’ve just never met an M that wasn’t disappointing, compared to that (or any) F. Then a year later I got a Kishsaver in Tinnie’s haul—superior feel, sound, build and layout—and that was straight up apotheosis.

Whenever I come to a Model M, I’ve all this background shaping my expectations. A great M is a great thing, but I can never unsee its inadequacies. I’m just so satisfying and deeply F’ed.

[Seirin-Blu]

minivan-sized (12.75x4u) keyboard

60% is small—15 × 5 units—so 12.75 × 4u should be even smaller. But a "minivan?"



Much too big! I think of my HHKB as roughly like a VW bug or a Mini, in keyboard terms. Which makes 40% more like…

Yeah the name doesn’t make a whole lotta sense unless you know the history behind it.

The person who originally created it went by evangs online (his name is Evan). The minivan was originally called TheVan44 in its first iteration, which I assume was a play on Evan’s name. The name later changed to minivan for whatever reason, saving the van part of Evan’s name but being a little bit easier to remember and say than “TheVan44”

[funkmon]

I missed this thread when it was relevant - but I'm glad I found it for that great piece of trivia about minivan.

I'll weigh in on the crap everyone is talking about.

1. Layouts on the Fs are dumb. the keyboards are the same size as a full size but lack 104 keys. That's dumb. BUT, they're substantially better than tenkeyless, and those who grew up on keyboards without the nav cluster are fairly adept at using the numpad, which you never have to turn on if you don't want to, and you still have all the nav cluster keys right there. It's better than TKL because you at least have the option.

2. Models F sound like shit. They ping, they're high pitched, they're no good.

3. Models F do feel better than an M, and it is obvious. I don't think they're smoother, but I do think they have a nice lighter feel. I think Models M tend to feel more like refrigerated butter. They're a little bit heavier but otherwise similar. Very close though.

4. Models F need to be adapted, except the AT, and if you have one that breaks, good fucking luck. The space bar is impossible and there are no parts.

5. Models F are expensive. My 4704 runs for 2 grand or some shit on eBay from orihalcon. The only tested F122 is the same price. The ATs are all $300. The XTs start at 100 bucks anymore, and you need to drop $40 on a soarer's. Ellipse's are $300-$500 and have massive QC issues befitting a one man operation.

The Model M is superior in virtually every single way.

Standard layout.

Great sound.

Great, but not amazing, feel.

They work immediately and if they break, Unicomp fixes them for you and sells you spare parts.

You can buy one new, with USB and warranty, for like a hundred bucks. It's just the better keyboard.

I do say that while typing on an XT and maining an F77.

So, if I think the M is the superior keyboard, why do I still use the F?

The key feel is just slightly better. I have about 15 Models F and about 50 Models M. I don't need to buy another one again, and after picking up a couple more of the last set of F77s from Ellipse, I probably won't...but I sometimes just buy new boards from Unicomp because I like them. I've only ever had one keyboard I got from a dump with broken rivets and a $50 trip to Unicomp fixed it.

I know in my heart if I typed on Models M for the rest of my life, I would be fine. I just ever so slightly prioritize the lighter keyfeel and slightly sharper feeling of the F. I frequently have a Model M upstairs and an F downstairs.

I do not actually like Beamers. They kind of feel like you're popping a jam jar. I would rather type on an M for the rest of my life than a beamer and it isn't close.

Okay bye.

[modelf]

Owner of several Models F, many more Models M (main ones are two 5/1986 1390120s and a 1987 early 1391401). Even though one of my Fs is a really sleek and great F/AT (with new foam and other improvements), my current daily driver is the 1987 early 1391401. It just consistently feels the best of any of these keyboards. I mean, even though the F feels better in many respects, I appreciate the more consistent feel of the Models M. I guess my point is, the universal judgment that "all Fs are better than all Ms" isn't always true... it depends on the individual keyboard and other variables.

[Muirium]

I guess my point is, the universal judgment that "all Fs are better than all Ms" isn't always true... it depends on the individual keyboard and other variables.

Speaking up for the straw man, I'd amend that to "all Fs should be better than all Ms, but depending on condition any of them can be total dog shit." That's what restoration is all about.

As Kbdfr likes to point out: Cherry MX blacks can and often do go through hell and back and feel more or less the same. They've certainly got that going for them. Consistency. Albeit mediocrity.

Low floor, or low ceiling: that's IBM vs. Cherry for you.

[kbdfr]

[…] As Kbdfr likes to point out: Cherry MX blacks can and often do go through hell and back and feel more or less the same. They've certainly got that going for them. Consistency. Albeit mediocrity. […]

The end of that remark is, of course, elitist specialists' speach. For everyday users (who, as it perhaps is useful to note, are the vast majority of keyboard users) , MX blacks are just perfect to type on.

[Muirium]

Actually, almost everyone gets by with rubberdomes on membrane, or much more so nowadays, scissorswitches and touchscreens. We're the tiny minority who notice or care.

[fohat]

1. Layouts on the Fs are dumb. the keyboards are the same size as a full size but lack 104 keys. That's dumb. BUT, they're substantially better than tenkeyless, and those who grew up on keyboards without the nav cluster are fairly adept at using the numpad, which you never have to turn on if you don't want to, and you still have all the nav cluster keys right there. It's better than TKL because you at least have the option.

2. Models F sound like shit. They ping, they're high pitched, they're no good.

The 122-key terminals can be modified (after doing it a few times it really isn't that hard, just tedious and fussy) to something extremely close to standard ANSI plus you get the benefit of a couple of dozen extra keys.

After using this layout for a decade, I get frustrated wanting the "missing" keys (even though there are really only about 8-10 that I use regularly) when I rotate to a "standard" Model M layout. For example today - since last week my F-122 started throwing off repeated key strokes and I haven't had the motivation to fix it.

While a "floss mod" is almost meaningless on a Model M, on a Model F it attenuates the higher overtones of the F pretty well, and the sound becomes much more palatable - including for the other people around you.

[Muirium]

You have several ANSI mods under your belt? Impressive!

[fohat]

You have several ANSI mods under your belt?

Yes, probably 10 or so, and I don't know that I've ever gotten the re-assembly in 1 go, it usually takes 2-3. It has taken as many as 5-6 tries because the pieces have to stay in place just so as you go through the trauma of the "sliding force fit" so when I hear somebody say something like "It's impossible to get these things back together, I tried THREE TIMES and it never worked" I just shake my head and think "This guy is just not a tinkerer at heart."

I always replace the foam and use "art foam" made for scrapbooking that it supposedly archival and acid-free. The stuff is moderately firm and 1/16" (1.5mm) thick so it has to be compressed harder than some of the thinner and/or softer mats that others use.

It has been several years since I did one, but I have 3 F-122s and an Unsaver that I modded, I think that I sold 2 of my earlier attempts, I have modded 2 for other people, and although I did a Model F AT "alt-mod" for someone else I have not yet done it to mine (silly, isn't it?).

[funkmon]

Yes, probably 10 or so, and I don't know that I've ever gotten the re-assembly in 1 go, it usually takes 2-3. It has taken as many as 5-6 tries because the pieces have to stay in place just so as you go through the trauma of the "sliding force fit" so when I hear somebody say something like "It's impossible to get these things back together, I tried THREE TIMES and it never worked" I just shake my head and think "This guy is just not a tinkerer at heart."

I resemble this remark

[Clavius]

Hey this is a cool thread Very interesting point about keyboard snobbery. I've had a couple of M's back-in-the-day and always loved them, but got rid of them eventually for the dumbest of reasons (no windows key, just kinda 'big' compared to other boards, etc.). I got into the hobby years ago as a result of loving the keyboard on my Thinkpad X220 and trying to figure out what a nice keyboard for my desktop would be. I picked up a number of M's and F's over the years, and did a lot of restoring and tweaking to get to that perfect feeling. Oh, and I had a lot of fun doing so, let's not forget.

Eventually I got my 'endgame' board in the F77 repro. This board is perfect for me; clean, sharp key feel of model F, compact layout without too much compromise on the keys I use, and a monumental case in industrial grey. So, now that perfection has been reached, are the other boards trash? Hell no. Although I love my F77, I do rotate boards from time to time, because it's fun to use all these different quirky things! I'm now daily driving a 'plebby' unicomp M, and I'm changing to a F bigfoot I'm working on next. Honestly; these boards are all 9's and 10's on the keyboard scale as far as I'm concerned, and absolute key feel isn't everything.

At work I stopped using an F because I felt it was too noisy and changed to a Dell SK8115 I found in the electronics bin, which is a surprisingly decent rubber dome board. I don't know, maybe over time I just realized that as long as I steer clear of the lower half of the keyboard universe I'm pretty much good to go.

[fohat]

Having experienced repeating keystrokes while using the Model F that has been "in rotation" for a few years, I pulled in my most convenient backup, a Northgate Omnikey 101, and have been using it for a couple of weeks. It is a very nice keyboard but I sorely missed the "extra" keys that I programmed for various purposes and have come to depend on.

Today I brought my "best" F-122 out of deep storage, and it is a dream to use. Floss modding and internal padding tame its brash overtones and make it a reasonable and dignified tool to use without any cause for ear pain to myself or to anybody else nearby. Although I prefer lighter switches, I am rather heavy-handed - a contradiction, I know - but while I enjoy touch-typing sometimes I also enjoy really banging on them, perhaps due to my mood?

Floss also makes the operation butter smooth, although it may increase the force to some small degree. I feel compelled to again recommend the floss mod as a strong aesthetic enhancement to a Model F, not withstanding the rather trivial difference that floss makes to a Model M.

[thefarside]

I also floss mod my F and Ms and agree it improves the sound a lot. Especially on an F. What type of internal padding to you use?

[fohat]

What type of internal padding to you use?

Generally art foam, sometimes felt and/or waffled drawer lining.

Where flat sheets fit I will do that, for spaces that have more volume I cut strips to the proper width and enough length to roll them into cylinders that will fill that particular volume. It can take multiple sheet layers and multiple rolls if you want to fill every cavity.

[thefarside]

What type of internal padding to you use?

Generally art foam, sometimes felt and/or waffled drawer lining.

Where flat sheets fit I will do that, for spaces that have more volume I cut strips to the proper width and enough length to roll them into cylinders that will fill that particular volume. It can take multiple sheet layers and multiple rolls if you want to fill every cavity.

Thanks. It sounds like you fill all the cavities in the case? I’ve never considered that. Does it dampen the sound?

[fohat]

It sounds like you fill all the cavities in the case?
Does it dampen the sound?

I have done various things. You can cut the sound in half and remove the most annoying overtones.
I love Model Fs for their feel, not their sound, a clicky but silent keyboard would be fine by me.

[Muirium]

Another few things come to mind I’d be just as reluctant to cut in half, myself!

I’m not one of those solenoid nutters—there’s always someone more extreme, right?—but I love me the sweet sharp sound of solid Model F. It’s keyboard heavy metal.

Mind, when it comes to Topre I’m all about the damping, so I feel your modding desire. Just lucky when it comes to stock Model F.

[AndyJ]

Remember, IBM put solenoids in some keyboards because their customers complained their new keyboards weren't loud *enough*.

[rezenew]

It was my understanding the solenoid activated when the terminal couldn't keep up with your key presses? I'm recalling from a YouTube comment I read years ago so maybe this is totally wrong.

[sharktastica]

It was my understanding the solenoid activated when the terminal couldn't keep up with your key presses? I'm recalling from a YouTube comment I read years ago so maybe this is totally wrong.

They were called "clicker assemblies" (or some variation of that) and primarily used for engaging on key presses under normal conditions, but they could be used to deliver some basic cues as well depending on the terminal. Here are some summaries from IBM literature. The comment you read might be one for a very specific terminal/program or a corruption of behaviour described below. IMO, it sounds like the inclusion of a solenoid was more a way to deliver those conditional cues rather than outright increase keyboard 'volume' (but it's always possible this is an official reason, and there were unofficial/undocumented reasons for their inclusion).

IBMs 3276, 3278 & 3279

https://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3278/GA27 ... _Feb84.pdf (PDF page 36)

The clicker engages when you press keys under normal conditions unless specifically toggled off. But the clicker is also used for indicating if the keyboard has been disabled by the terminal/program. The keyboard is being flagged as disabled if:

* ...the clicker is set to on and no clicks are heard.
* ...the clicker is set to off and clicks are heard.

IBM 3178

https://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3178/GA18 ... 198308.pdf (PDF page 31)

The clicker engages when you press keys under normal conditions unless specifically toggled off. If the clicker is set to off and a click is heard, it means the terminal/program is under input-inhibited ("Do-Not-Enter") conditions. I think this wording is just a TLDR of the 3276/8/9 behaviour.

IBMs 5251 & 5252

https://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/5250_5251 ... _May80.pdf (PDF page 125)

Under normal conditions, the clicker will click on key presses. Whereas on 3270 series terminals it was also used to indicate input inhibition, 5251/2 has dedicated indicators for this. So whilst the clicker can stop if the keyboard is disabled by the terminal or program, it will always stay off in this condition. Page 159 of that PDF describes some states that affect the clicker (namely "Data Mode" and "SS Message State").